How Vaccine Mandates at Concerts Can Create False Sense of Security

Everyone in live music is attempting to navigate the choppy waters of the Delta variant surge of COVID-19 as best they can, with many artists, festivals, and venues choosing to adopt a model where patrons must show proof of vaccination to attend. Some also give the option of presenting a negative COVID test from the past 72 hours as an alternative to vaccination proof.
But along with the push back from some concerned with both civil rights and discrimination issues these mandates can pose, the amount of breakthrough cases for fully vaccinated individuals continues to swell (and be strangely under-reported by public health officials), and a new study from Oxford underscores the dangers of vaccinated carriers of the disease, making it important to question if vaccine mandates truly are the best path forward as positive cases continue to push near record levels, and local hospitals are pushed to capacity.
Some promoters and artists are presenting vaccine mandates as a panacea to pandemic concerns for mass gatherings when the developing science surrounding the Delta variant and waning vaccine efficacy just doesn’t validate this opinion.
Based on more than three million test subjects who received nose and throat swabs, the Oxford University study released on August 19th found that 90 days after a second shot of the Pfizer or Astrazeneca vaccines, their efficacy in preventing infections had slipped to 75% and 61%, down from 85% and 68% two weeks after the second dose. The decline in efficacy was more pronounced among those aged 35 years and older than those below that age.
But perhaps most troubling to the effectiveness of vaccine mandates is what the study says about the viral load of the COVID-19 pathogen that many of the subjects who experienced breakthrough cases registered. The Oxford study showed that those who get infected despite vaccination tend to have the same viral load as unvaccinated individuals. Though vaccinated people tend to have better health outcomes—meaning significant less likelihood of developing severe disease resulting in hospitalization or death—they can still spread the disease due to the viral load their body contains.
In fact, due to the increased likelihood of vaccinated individuals experiencing a breakthrough case not experiencing symptoms themselves, they can be more likely to spread COVID-19 to more vulnerable populations, such as children under 12 who are not eligible for vaccines, the elderly, immune compromised, individuals with pre-existing conditions, or individuals who can’t receive the vaccine due to health restrictions.
Meanwhile, proven safe practice procedures adopted during the pandemic such as holding events outside instead of inside, along with social distancing, are at times being completely ignored or even overruled for packed indoor events with vaccine mandates.
For example, when Americana artist Jason Isbell instituted a vaccine mandate for his current tour, he cancelled a show at Houston’s Cynthia Woods Mitchell Pavillion that could not implement the mandate in time for the show, even though the show was outside, and had only sold 1,700 tickets to a venue with a capacity of 16,500 that could have instituted socially-distanced seating for the event. Isbell also moved a show in Fort Worth at the Panther Island Pavilion that can expand to as much as a 60,000 capacity to the indoor Billy Bob’s Texas where patrons were packed in.
On August 18th, Garth Brooks canceled five announces dates on his current stadium tour due to concerns over the Delta variant. Then Garth Brooks announced this week he would be replacing the stadium tour with a “dive bar” tour. “This fall, dive bars,” Garth Brooks. “Because you can fully vaccinate dive bars. People have got to have their card to even get in … I’m vaccinated, 100% vaccinated. Everybody on the freakin’ tour, vaccinated.”
But as we’ve seen with the recent Delta variant surge, breakthrough cases, specifically within the entertainer class, have caused the cancellation of many tours. And packing people into indoor venues—vaccinated or not—is potentially more likely to result in COVID-19 spread than outdoor venues.
In an Billboard interview with Dr. Amesh A. Adalja, who is a senior scholar at Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security and an authority on infectious diseases and pandemic preparedness, she said,
There are increased risks of transmission when you move things from the outdoors to the indoors because people can’t naturally socially distance, the ventilation will not be the same. There’s no sunlight, humidity — all those things are not necessarily going to be replicated in an indoor setting. People are going to have to learn to make risk calculations. For some people that risk might be they don’t go to indoor concerts. For other people, they do go to indoor concerts depending on their individual risk tolerance. The best way to make those venues safe is to have as many people vaccinated as possible.
While many are praising Garth Brooks, Jason Isbell, and others for implementing vaccine mandates at concerts and moving to smaller venues, nobody is discussing the indoor vs. outdoor dynamic, and how COVID-19 spread is mitigated in outdoor settings.
Since opinions on this issue can vary, statnews.com conducted a study of 27 heath experts, asking them which activities they would and would not participate in during the pandemic, considering a population of both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. While attending indoor events ranked high among the activities most of the health experts said they would not do, “Attend a large outdoor concert or sporting event” was one of the the things they were most likely to do.
Though much more research on the Delta variant needs to be done, it’s at least worth debating whether a large outdoor festival or concert is more safe than a smaller, indoor music event, vaccine mandate or not. According to the 27 health experts queried by Stat News, they believe the outdoor option is better.

None of this is to discourage vaccination against COVID-19. Getting a vaccine is still considered by health experts to be the best way to safeguard the individual from severe illness. But it’s clear that the efficacy of vaccine mandates for musical events is at least debatable, along with the underlying issues of fake vaccination cards, those who are unable to get the vaccine, and the slippery slope of when such mandates will be lifted, and what to do about booster shots. The only real way to ensure an event does not have any active COVID-19 cases among attendees would be testing, not vaccination records.
None of this is to advocate for the cancellation of indoor music events either. Venues and festivals are hurting after a prolonged period of not being able to hold events at all. But as the rush to implement vaccine mandates in public spaces continues, little or no discussion is being had if the practice could be creating a false sense of security, and ironically, help to spread COVID-19 and the Delta variant as opposed to slowing it down.
Ultimately, with vaccines now available to everyone aside from children under 12 (who few are talking about getting locked out of music events since they’re not eligible for vaccines), there is an assumed risk everyone takes by choosing to get a vaccine, or choosing not to. With the Delta variant, herd immunity is now a myth. Giving the public the best information to keep themselves safe should be a priority. Mandating the public follow certain rules that may only create the specter of safety while possibly exacerbating the spread of COVID-19 should be rigorously discussed.
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Editor’s Note: Comments from Dr. Robert W. Malone were removed from this article to eliminate any potential controversy.
August 24, 2021 @ 6:48 pm
Malone did not invent mRNA vaccines. He is a known spreader of misinformation and he actively cultivates vaccine skepticism.
Stick to music.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:00 pm
See how easy it is to shut down a nuanced discussion involving a study from Oxford University, and the opinion of 28 separate health experts, even if you strike Dr. Malone from the picture?
Regardless of what you or anyone wants to think about Dr. Malone (who is a virologist who worked on the mRNA vaccines), what he said here was intuitively true, and verifiable by the Oxford study: vaccinated individuals who experience a breakthrough case of COVID-19 have the same viral load as unvaccinated individuals, and since they don’t experience as severe symptoms or any symptoms at all, MAY (his words) become greater spreaders of the disease.
And this has absolutely everything to do with the music. There is no bigger in music right now than this. That is why it is so important to discuss.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:10 pm
So what is the takeaway supposed to be here?Outdoor concerts only?
I look forward to trying that in the winter as someone who lives in the northeast.
I have heard nobody, at all, refer to vaccine mandates for concerts as a panacea. They are, however, risk mitigation.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:59 pm
As it says in the article,
“None of this is to advocate for the cancellation of indoor music events. Venues and festivals are hurting after a prolonged period of not being able to hold events at all. But as the rush to implement vaccine mandates in public spaces continues, little or no discussion is being had if the practice could be creating a false sense of security, and ironically, help to spread COVID-19 and the Delta variant as opposed to slowing it down.”
We’re just trying to have a discussion here, and enter a different perspective from the prevailing narrative. Rushing to one side or the other of the binary doesn’t help. Taking an outdoor event and moving it indoors to make it more safe runs counter to how we know the transmission of COVID-19 occurs, and what many experts say.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:50 pm
Liza doesn’t trust the science.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:32 pm
Dr.Robert Malone has never once spread misinformation and is in FACT is the inventor of the mRNA technology used by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna in their COVID-19 vaccines.,
as for the FDA and just how ‘reputable’ they are ..Follow the Commissioners
Scott Gottlieb – Former Commissioner of the FDA resigns and then goes to Pfizer to be on the board of directors.
Stephen Hahn – Replaces Gottlieb as FDA Commissioner and eventually resigns. He is now the Chief Medical Officer for Moderna.
Janet Woodcock – Wrongly advises Rick Bright (a fully-controlled individual) that HCQ is a dangerous drug requiring EUA that should be ONLY limited to hospitalized patients. Remember, all of the relevant clinical data at the time showed HCQ to be extremely effective in early treatment and NOT in hospitalized patients. Several months later Janet Woodcock replaces Stephen Hahn as the Commissioner of the FDA.
Is this all making sense yet?
PS Hospitalizations in Hawaii are up 854% in 2 months despite one of the longest mask mandates and highest vaccination rates in the Country,
We also now know that CDC numbers revealed over 130,000 deaths from Pneumonia , Heart Attacks, and Influenza were counted as ‘Covid’ deaths
Now let the following sink in, – the following are places you can go to work where the jab is NOT mandated
1 The White House
2 The CDC
3 The FDA
4 The WHO
5 Pfizer
6 modeRNA
7 Johnson & Johnson,
starting to get it?
p.s. Rochelle Wolensky of the CDC just announced the following –
“Reports from our international colleagues, including Israel, suggest increased risk of severe disease amongst those vaccinated early. Given this body of evidence, we are concerned that the current strong protection against severe infection, hospitalization, and death could decrease in the months ahead, especially among those who are at higher risk or who were vaccinated earlier during the phases of our vaccination rollout.”
Imagine cheering for Big Government, Big Tech and Big Pharma and thinking you’re the ‘resistance’ .,when is the last time you heard a celebrity or politician endorse eating healthy,exercising? 18 months in and youre still chasing that carrot rope, a third booster perhaps then a fourth and fifth? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, btw what is the death toll of the 700 who attended Obama’s birthday bash without a mask or social distancing? or of the 385,000 people who attended 2021’s Lollapalooza festival? you know what else is insane ?..trusting criminals like Pfizer with your life https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna32657347
August 24, 2021 @ 9:02 pm
J&J are much better though:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/
You make a lot of good points. I am curious about the vaccination status, by percentage of those hospitalized in Hawaii though. The one argument that can still be made for vaccines is lowering fatality and serious illness. At least for now. Only a couple weeks ago breakthrough infections were believed to be less than one percent. The totally body positive plus size lady hasn’t sung yet. And we can be SURE we’ll get some healthy and honest discussion when she does. ????
August 25, 2021 @ 7:19 am
Matt,
In case you’re really wondering, I just wanted to let you know, with 100% certainty, that Liza is not only NOT starting to get it, but also that she never will start to get it.
I appreciate your post however, and wish you a healthy and happy, mask and chemical free day.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:06 am
Says the chick with a high school education. Do you even know what mRNA is?
August 24, 2021 @ 6:58 pm
Used to come here to avoid the barrage of politicized Covid news. I know you don’t care, but I think this is it for me. So long.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:01 pm
No seeing how this is politicized at all.
Sorry to see you go.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:19 pm
Studies have shown that people can get in a car accident even when they’re sober, so laws mandating you not drive drunk can create a false sense of security.
Furthermore, such laws go against your personal freedoms to do what you want with your body and your car.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:24 pm
Bad example.
There are two issues here that are intertwined:
1) Vaccine mandates at venues potentially creating a false sense of security to where concertgoers forgo practices such as social distancing, while also potentially spreading the virus unknowingly due to asymptomatic infection of a breakthrough case.
2) Promoters and artists purposefully moving events from outdoor settings to indoor settings under the false notion this will somehow be more safe against the overwhelming consensus of studies and experts.
In an attempt to tie this your your example, it would be like knowing the greater risk of accident by driving drunk (i.e. indoor event vs. outdoor event), and mandating someone drive drunk (i.e. moving an event from outdoors to indoors).
Again, I’m not for eliminating indoor events whatsoever. But people being incentivized or praised for moving events from outdoors to indoors makes absolutely no sense.
August 26, 2021 @ 10:52 pm
Argument fails on this point. You have a right to consume alcohol. You don’t have a right to get in the car, drunk, cause an accident or kill people. Personal “liberties” end when you force your choices on others, in this case unsuspecting bystanders.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:29 pm
Malone is an Elmer Gantry holding PhD. The Atlantic wrote a wonderful article about him. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
And considering he just gave an interview to Steve fucking Bannon, well…
August 24, 2021 @ 7:57 pm
AdamAmericana doesn’t trust the science.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:18 pm
Because it is not about science for them. It is about control.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:01 pm
Again, the comments or Robert Malone really have little bearing on the assertions made in this article, so little I just struck them without having to make any additional edits.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:10 am
But, Jill Biden is a real doctor? You libs suck at life.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:56 am
she is a doctor as in she has a doctoral degree… no one is saying she is a medical doctor. do you know the difference or do you just… suck?
August 25, 2021 @ 12:20 pm
I read her dissertation. Even The Genital could fo better work than that.
August 25, 2021 @ 12:34 pm
you read her dissertation and you still thought she was a medical doctor? lol. good self dunk, mikey.
August 25, 2021 @ 2:01 pm
You certainly have the comprehension skills of a liberal. Good show.
August 25, 2021 @ 2:32 pm
hey mikey, being a doctor due to obtaining an advanced degree and being a medical doctor are two very different things. just like the holocaust and masks/vaccines are two very different things (which you are confused about below).
did you know socialism and communism are also two very different things? same with weather and climate? rights vs. luxuries? patriotism vs. nationalism? private businesses doing something vs. the gov’t doing something? all different!
anything thing else i can help you comprehend?
August 24, 2021 @ 7:32 pm
Just stopping in to see the regurgitated comments that zealots have received from whichever politician or media source they worship.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:41 pm
Also predictable is that instead of refuting his points (that are verified by others, and the study referenced), watch them attack Robert Malone and his credibility, as a way to shut down the discussion.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:56 pm
Discussion? Is that still a thing?
August 24, 2021 @ 8:07 pm
In Newspeak it means whining and slandering until you get your way, and the author censors his own article (which just happened). I’ve learned to love these discussions.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:11 pm
The author only censors his own article when it suits his agenda.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:23 pm
I find them pointless. It’s only a discussion if both sides are listening to the points of the other. Spouting the meme you read on Facebook this morning back and forth at each other doesn’t qualify. It’s like asking for more blathering from sheep.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:24 am
…”and the author censors his own article (which just happened).”….
This has always been my biggest problem with Trigger. He is such a massive pu$$y. I don’t like foul language, but that’s the most fitting word for what I’m trying to convey.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:48 am
I didn’t take down the Dr.’s comments because I’m a pussy. I took them down because as the early comments on this article illustrate,it was a distraction from the underlying points of the article, and were being used to “discredit the entire piece,” as one commenters said. Okay, then strike them. It wasn’t fundamental to the article, just icing on the cake. If I had kept them up, Dr. Robert W. Malone would have been the central discussion point of this article, not the underlying points.
It is unfortunate though, that today when you try to engage in healthy discussion, and bring bullet proof science, experts, and statistics to bear, people try to undermine the entire thing through character assassination as opposed to having a discussion on the merits of the arguments being made.
August 25, 2021 @ 11:48 am
Trigger,
Dawg, you have a track record of being soft in the face of “adversity”. This includes censoring factual comments that you think will offend people, and/or apologizing to leftists for an article you wrote.
I agree with you, like 12% of the time, but I would never threaten to stop reading because you wrote something that made me cry. Write what you want to write, stand by it, and if someone cries, give them the middle finger emoji.
August 25, 2021 @ 1:41 pm
Right! It’s not like Republicans attack Fauci’s credibility; as opposed to trying to debate him on facts…oh wait; that’s all Republicans have been doing.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:43 pm
Utilizing Malone as a source of your info, discredits the entire piece.
Yes there are breakthrough infections, but they are significantly less deadly than infections among the unvaccinated.
Now that the Pfizer vaccine has official FDA approval, my local venues are moving toward requiring a vaccine or recent negative test. I am grateful that they are doing this, not because I think it makes the concert safe, but because it aids me in managing risk. Even if it is still an unsafe event, if it gets a single vaccine hesitant individual to get vaccinated, it makes my community safer. Where I live the hospitals are near capacity, people with chronic illness can not get treated because our hospitals are full of people who basically chose to get sick.
I am over coddling to the unvaccinated, I am 100% ok with ostracizing them from the community for their choice. Yep, you have a free choice on whether you want to get vaccinated. But at the same time, the venue owner, the bar manager, the restaurant owner, etc., also has a free choice whether they want you in their establishment. The unvaccinated are not a protected class and they can be freely discriminated against.
August 24, 2021 @ 7:54 pm
“Utilizing Malone as a source of your info, discredits the entire piece.”
Awesome. I just took him out because he really had no fundamental bearing on anything discussed in this article, since his words were just redundant to the findings of the Oxford study.
“I am grateful that they are doing this, not because I think it makes the concert safe, but because it aids me in managing risk.”
So does staging an event outdoors instead of indoors, according to a majority of infectious disease experts. So why instead are we moving some events from outdoors to indoors?
I’m not saying I have all of the answers here. But it seems with the amount of breakthrough cases we are seeing, these are matters worth discussing.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:06 pm
Sorry that my first comment on your site was a rant. I’ve been reading here for 10 years, you’ve turned me on to most of the music that I listen to, I’ve just never been moved to comment until now.. I respect your right to write about whatever moves you. I am not one to tell you to shy away from politics, I can mostly follow on the “why” when you do take up a political issue.
There is some evidence to support your false sense of security thesis, for example it has been shown that those who wear bicycle helmet take more risks.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:36 pm
Just like I often do with music, I feel it’s really important to attempt to offer differing perspectives, to play Devil’s advocate, to look at issues through a nuanced lens, and hopefully, foster discussion that helps breed better understanding.
I started Saving Country Music because it drove me crazy that all people were paying attention to in “country” music was Taylor Swift and Kenny Chesney. I wanted folks to know about the entire other world out there of music, and to offer spirited dissent about what country music had become.
Today as I saw people praise Garth Brooks for canceling his stadium tour and planning instead to launch an indoor tour, and people do the same for Jason Isbell with some of the tour decisions he made recently, while I’m reading left and right that vaccines are losing their efficacy against Delta, and outdoor events are still preferable according to experts. So I felt the need to speak up, and offer a science and expert-based argument of why the current trend might not be the best path forward for both artists and fans. I am not anti-vaxx, or a Covid denier. But when I see a unchallenged consensus build around an issue that is not as sounds as some would like to portray, I feel an obligation to speak up, and not in spite of how unpopular it is, but because of how unpopular it is.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:00 pm
“I am over coddling to the unvaccinated, I am 100% ok with ostracizing them from the community for their choice.”
Considering how the majority of unvaccinated in the US are African Americans and Hispanics, I’d say you’re one racist POS.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:05 pm
The majority of the unvaccinated in the US are white, because the majority of US citizens are white. However, as a percentage, whites are more likely to be vaccinated, while blacks and Hispanics are less likely to be vaccinated. As I’ve said before, these mandates do disproportionately discriminate against minorities and poor individuals. But total population vs. per capita is an important distinction to make here.
August 25, 2021 @ 4:33 pm
How do they “discriminate” against minorities? The vaccines are free and available at every pharmacy, hospital, grocery store, and pharmacy in the country, and many “blue” states even went out of their way to actively vaccinate minorities ahead of the rest of the population, at the expense of people more likely to contract and die from the virus. Disparate outcomes do not equal discrimination.
August 25, 2021 @ 6:05 pm
The simple fact is minorities are just much less likely to get the vaccine due to their distrust in public institutions, the government, the media, and big pharma.
Last week, The New York Times did a report on how only 28% of young black people in New York have gotten the vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/nyregion/covid-vaccine-black-young-new-yorkers.html
Since New York City has a vaccine mandate for indoor dining and clubs, that means 72% of young black New Yorkers will not have access to these businesses compared to less than 30% of whites.
I wrote an in-depth article about this recently:
https://savingcountrymusic.com/the-inconvenient-truth-about-vaccine-requirements-at-venues/
The simple fact is, even though the media loves to portray the unvaccinated America as a stupid white redneck, minorities are much more hesitant to get the vaccine, and specifically because of the systemic oppression they have faced in this country historically. That’s why calling people who refuse to get the vaccine “stupid” is to fundamentally misunderstand the dilemma. It’s also why these vaccine mandates systemically discriminate against brown and black people.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:02 pm
“That’s why calling people who refuse to get the vaccine “stupid” is to fundamentally misunderstand the dilemma. It’s also why these vaccine mandates systemically discriminate against brown and black people.”
Good Lord,
Could you be any more prejudiced.
Get. Your. Head. Out. of Your.
Ass.
The Blacks & Hispanics are not getting the vaccine because they are too smart to get it.
Nor is this American Indian getting it.
August 26, 2021 @ 9:27 am
Vaccine hesitancy does not equal a vaccine policy being discriminatory, full-stop. To suggest otherwise is intellectually lazy. I saw the NY Times piece you are linking to, and the bottom line is that this ‘every disparate outcome is racist’ bullshit is what is keeping minorities from acting rationally and getting vaccinated. Give people and excuse, and they will use that excuse forever.
“The Blacks & Hispanics are not getting the vaccine because they are too smart to get it.”
This pandemic and associated bullshit is literally never going to end as long as you keep up that attitude. We’re all in this together or we’re not, and it’s ‘useful idiots’ like yourself that are going to keep us penned up in our homes with diapers strapped to our faces from now until the end of our miserable lives.
August 26, 2021 @ 9:36 am
And one more thing on the “Blacks and Hispanics”. The local big hospital where I am recently reported on the number of Covid patients they are treating. As of August 13th, they had 31 patients. They reported that 30 of the 31 patients were unvaccinated. I happen to work for a company that has connections within this hospital, and one of the doctor’s there was paying us a visit. He confided that more than half of the patients are overweight, Hispanic males who had the same attitude as the ‘American Indian’ above.
Like the non-Woke, sane people in this world, the virus does not care what your skin color is.
August 26, 2021 @ 11:13 am
Yes, black and brown people tend to have worse outcomes with COVID-19 because they tend to be more overweight, and more deficient in Vitamin D.
Totally understand that the rollout of the vaccines has not been discriminatory. If anything, health officials have been attempting outreach to minority communities. I am simply pointing out that the outcome of imposing vaccine mandates will be the exclusion of a disproportionate amount of black and brown people, as well as poor people. This will further institutionalize the walled gardens that continue to be erected around affluent, educated, neoliberal whites in America who claim to be for diversity.
I also will continue to point out that calling peop0le hesitant to receive the vaccine as “stupid” is not going to increase the numbers of vaccinated people. Only understanding the fundamental reasons for their hesitancy and addressing them will.
August 26, 2021 @ 11:36 am
“The Blacks & Hispanics are not getting the vaccine because they are too smart to get it.”
This pandemic and associated bullshit is literally never going to end as long as you keep up that attitude. We’re all in this together or we’re not, and it’s ‘useful idiots’ like yourself that are going to keep us penned up in our homes with diapers strapped to our faces from now until the end of our miserable lives.
Jake,
Are you talking to me?
Want to make sure, before thinking about responding to this.
August 25, 2021 @ 3:14 am
Sure thing Tucker.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:12 am
Jt would be the first to load up into the trains. Bahhhhh
August 25, 2021 @ 8:59 am
everything is the holocaust. masks are the holocaust. not going to concerts is the holocaust. you stubbed your little toe… you guess it, the holocaust.
get real. and get even a basic understanding of what the holocaust was and was not (hint: it wasn’t this).
August 25, 2021 @ 7:07 pm
How do you think Germany got to the Holocaust?
They certainly didn’t start by loading up the trains to the gas chambers. It is a process of slowing eroding rights and dehumanizing people.
Read Tortured for Christ. It is an excellent account on how totalitarians gain power and how useful idiots like yourself advance their causes.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:20 pm
which rights are being eroded exactly? you can still go to concerts without being vaccinated. no one is forcing you. you’re just choosing not to. go put a qtip up your nose you little babies. oh wait, i’ll add that to the holocaust list.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:40 pm
Very inaccurate historically. The Nazis took power 30 January 1933 and by the end of February 4000+ communists were arrested and sent to camps and freedom of assembly and of the press were eliminated. By the end of March Hitler could pass all laws without consent of the Reichstag. By May the SPD, the largest opposition party was outlawed. By July the Nazis were the only political party. The suspension of rights and the conversion to dictatorship was swift.
I’m making no comments on vaccine mandates, just correcting a common misconception! You seem to enjoy history so thought I’d help. Enjoy!
August 24, 2021 @ 8:09 pm
The virus is all around. It is way too late to prevent exposures.
Everyone must make their own choices (and decisions for their children) based on their risk factors and risk tolerance. It’s how we do everything else.
If you’re worried about catching covid at a concert, don’t go. If you decide to go the concert and you catch covid, it’s not the fault of the artist or the venue.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:14 pm
I hope you’re all still masking. Maybe five or six extra masks, on top of the normal two, would help. If we can all just mask up, practice social distancing (1,500 feet is preferred,) and get 7 or 8 extra booster shots a month, we can finally flatten the curve. In lieu of that, maybe you can fill your vehicle with gas, pull it into the garage, start the engine, give each member of your family a triple dose of Nyquil, wrap their faces in plastic wrap and duct tape, and lock them in the basement. When the car runs out of gas, you’ll have your salvation.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:22 pm
This is a well thought out article, and I appreciate you bringing these issues up, as nobody else seems to want to have this conversation. That said, in the interest of having a good faith discussion around the topic, I want to bring up some points that I think are also worth noting, mainly around the premise that the vaccines are not preventing the spread of the COVID-19 Delta Variant. I’m not looking to debate for debates sake, but rather to open up a dialogue so we can all find out what the best path forward is for all of us to get back to enjoying the live music that we love in the safest, least restrictive way possible. I sincerely hope this can be done in a non-partisan fashion. So for the sake of identifying biases up front I want to state that I am the following:
1. A liberal
2. Fully vaccinated
3. In a local band that does not tour nationally and currently only has one gig on the books.
Now I’m not an expert in epidemiology, vaccines, or infectious diseases, I’m just a normal guy with an internet connection, so feel free to take my opinions with a ginormous grain of salt.
Now let’s get to it.
First things first, I agree we should explore this from all angles, including if testing and/or outdoor shows would be more effective than vaccine mandates. I’ll start with the issue I see with testing on it’s own. I know this is a multipronged subject, so it’s damn near impossible to break everything down individually but I’m going to do my best (again, just a moron with an internet connection over here).
One issue I see with the testing plan would simply be testing efficacy and timing. I’m not sure if these venues are using antigen tests or PCR tests, but therein lies the rub. If people are taking antigen tests on the day of the concert to prove they aren’t infectious, than those tests have a specificity of around 90% (https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1676). Which is great! However, if they are going off the “negative test within 72 hours” plan, and using PCR than we run in to the same problem we had earlier in the pandemic when people were using only testing to prevent infection: timing. As article 1 I present to you the White House outbreak in October of 2020 (https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54401186, this was the least biased article I could find.) Where we know the President was requiring people to test negative before events (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/02/us/elections/the-white-house-relied-on-a-rapid-test-but-used-it-in-a-way-it-was-not-intended.html, God it is hard to find something written about Trump that isn’t biased. I sincerely apologize.) Granted, they were using a rapid test and I’m talking about the PCR, but the point is that this system didn’t work with the original variant, given that people could test negative and then become infectious shortly thereafter if they were already infected. Also, according to this MIT study, this testing method would be even less effective with the Delta variant. (https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/07/are-things-different-delta)
Per MIT:
“Not only would that individual’s viral load reach a detectable level (positive PCR test) more quickly; it would also reach an infectious level sooner. An individual infected with the original strain of the virus would, on average, become able to transmit the virus between three and four days after exposure, in the 48 hours before developing symptoms or testing positive. In contrast, it appears that someone infected with the Delta variant may be able to infect others within a day or two of being exposed.”
So that, to me, throws a simple testing strategy out the window as the safest path forward. But I’m always open to being proved wrong, I sincerely mean that.
Next up is outdoor venues. Again, study after study has shown that the virus does not spread as well outdoors, so I agree with you that this should be seen as an alternative to vaccine mandates. The problem is of course the obvious one: weather. Up here in MN it’s simply not feasible to have outdoor shows in the months of November-February. So it kind of becomes a moot point in this climate, but if you live in a place where that’s an option, than I do think it’s everyone’s best bet. A lot less debates to be had about the ethics or legality of vaccine mandates if this was possible for everyone. I wish that was the world we lived in, but it gets cold up here brother, we need to go inside sometimes 😉
Finally to the bread and butter of this whole discussion, do vaccine mandates even do anything? I think they help, as stated earlier they are not a panacea, but then again, neither is an outdoor event entirely. The idea is to reduce risk, as you already know and have illustrated clearly. And do vaccine mandates do that? I think the answer is yes. In the Oxford study it says efficacy for protection from the vaccine drops down to 68% in the face of the Delta variant. In my mind that means if I have a room of 100 people in front of me that are fully vaccinated, 68 of them probably aren’t infected. If there is no vaccine mandate in place, I have no idea how many of them are infected. Sure, we could say that if everyone had received a negative test, than we have the 90% specificity of the antigen test to tell us that, most likely, about 90 of these people probably don’t have the virus (maybe that number goes up in that instance? I was always dogshit at math, so hopefully somebody smarter can do the numbers on that one). But, again, if people are using a PCR test within 72 hours, we really have no fucking idea if they are infected or not, so I’d take a vaccine mandate with 68% odds over a number I don’t even know.
So worst case scenario, the vaccine mandate leaves us with 32 people infected and spreading the virus within the venue. Not ideal. And could this scenario still cause an outbreak? You bet. But the thing we know won’t happen to those people that get infected at this event: hospitalization. (https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-delta-variant-covid) and in my mind, that’s the point. We just want to prevent our healthcare systems from breaking again. So perhaps we have vaccine mandates in places where covid is rising to help prevent hospitals from being overrun due to outbreaks caused by many indoor shows? And then once we are past that point we can relax on the vax mandates for a minute.
All of these choices involve taking calculated risks for our own health, but I think the calculated risks we need to be looking at (once again, deja vu anyone?) are our healthcare systems. Perhaps that would be a better way of framing the vaccine mandate conversation? I know there are inherent problems with that as well (see: lockdowns) but in my mind I just don’t see a better alternative, open to hearing them though.
Thanks for reading my diatribe everybody, hope to see you all at a show sometime soon.
August 24, 2021 @ 8:26 pm
Never any mention about getting your vitamin D level tested. Most people are at deficient levels of 20 to 30 ng/ml. Those with blood levels around 60 to 70 ng/ml rarely get sick from any viral disease, including colds and flu. Vitamin D is actually a hormone that is critical for a properly functioning immune system. Many people would greatly benefit by supplementing with 5000 IU of vitamin D3 each day. (That is a very safe minuscule amount… an IU is similar to a microgram, not a milligram). Lifeguards get about 25,000 IU of vit. D per hour just being in the noon sun.
Unfortunately since it can’t be patented, most doctors will never tell you about it. Can’t get rich off of informed healthy folks.
(Let’s see how long this post lasts before the bots censor it.)
August 24, 2021 @ 8:46 pm
If average folks could be responsible for their own health, how could drug companies get rich?
August 24, 2021 @ 8:56 pm
Think of how dumb the average person is. And then realize that 49.99% are dumber than that. ????
August 24, 2021 @ 9:04 pm
What is your base line? In this country it used to be somewhat higher. Look at pre ’65 and post ’65. We’re importing millions more every year. Getting dumber and dumber.
Find a “treatment” instead of a cure. Every “treatment” is an annuity, every cure is a dead end. What do the drug companies choose?
August 24, 2021 @ 9:32 pm
When I was a kid we had a hospital that consisted of 1 large building. Now that same area is a mega-complex of about 2 dozen large specialty buildings and the size of a small city downtown. Tells me everything I need to know about modern American medicine.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:06 am
yes, all those stupid immigrants coming over and becoming doctors… we don’t need to import stupid people, exhibit a, this conversation between you and jim.
and jim, i think you being confused by buildings is hilarious.
August 24, 2021 @ 9:02 pm
Big Pharma, CDC, NIH, been taking graft & receiving kickbacks for decades.
The current coup against humankind is astounding.
Laughing.
Unbelievable how stupid people are.
Save your breath, all you big pharma boot lickers. You’re going to need it
August 24, 2021 @ 9:16 pm
Bash By the Bay festivities started today.
Expecting ~ 15K?
Blake Shelton, Keith Urban, Carly Pearce, amongst others slated to play tomorrow & Thursday.
Gee, hope the hospitals are not “overwhelmed” after
August 24, 2021 @ 10:07 pm
What’s inescapable is the bald fact that the best thing for music venues, artists, and country music is to have people vaccinate. Without vaccinations the virus runs rampant and necessitates public health responses restricting normal activities, i.e. most things music to be initiated by any responsible public officials.
Masks, vaccines, and proof of negative tests, and vaccine status make it possible for music to return. If you want to take a libertarian approach to addressing public health crises it means 1. mass preventable death or 2. cycles of opening/shutting down society. Choose your choice.
August 24, 2021 @ 10:14 pm
Just heard from a friend who is at Bash By the Bay.
No covid regs.
Finally, a venue with its head not up its ass
August 24, 2021 @ 10:30 pm
Best I can tell at this point is we live in a world where information has become politicized noise. For the most part of no more informational value than the analog fuzz after TV sign off (not accounting for the rendition of the Star- Spangled Banner) at midnights of my youth. In such an environment who the hell thinks they can really influence anyone else at a meaningful level? Tin foil hats and intellectual stone walls for one and all! I have no answers to this, except to say that at some point stoic detached fact, shown to be statistically valid and provided in an easily digested manner should be easy to monetize. I hope. And, no, I’m not talking about some jackass talking head “influencer” in their moms basement on facetagram. I mean real reporting. Ditch dwellers on either side of the isle should get washed down the receiving culvert. For the record, I’ve got my jabs and would do it again. I’ll probably get the booster(s) too. I also have to say that I got them under the now apparently false pretense that it’d put me past the point of needing to shelve my “normal” life over this disease. When we’re seeing instances of 40% of the COVID hospitalized being vaccinated, 14% with both doses – https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/facebook-posts/uk-health-official-misspoke-when-he-said-60-hospit/, I just kind of resort to shrugging. 14% of a group over a long enough time without significant advances in actual suppression therapy will eventually equal most of a population. 40% gets us there faster. Because math happens. With that current info, best I can tell at this point is those in the high risk spectrum may want to consider acting accordingly. IMO personal responsibility should be a thing. For those outside that high risk group it seems the vaccine still has some benefits. At least to the point of not accelerating the problem. I’m personally no more concerned about the vaccine than I am the disease, but that’s also because I tend to walk through the world as if waves break against me. Without the personal fear I revert to the hope that maybe those shots keep me off a hospital bed needed to treat a kid with cancer, or maybe to a less serious degree gets me access to a good show or a foreign vacation without being hassled. I’m also of the opinion it’s probably disingenuous to chastise those who refuse to get the shots. Who knows what their individual health predispositions to adverse effects are? I sure the hell don’t have a copy of their medical chart. Seems there is a growing amount of evidence that the shots are only doing so much good so if there is a brighter risk of adverse effect that’s their choice, none of my business. These vaccines have only been in play for a short amount of time and breakthroughs (read about the gamma variant and C-22) have to be of concern. I’ll be of this opinion until I receive clear info cutting through the noise, with reporting that proves how these apparently major breakthroughs are statistically invalid / significantly deterred by current or new vaccines over a relevant period of time. Also, I’m wrong often and reserve the right to change my mind if / when I get and digest new info that runs contrary to my current opinion(s). Maybe such a mindset would result in a less tribal and more pleasant society to be part of. Which would be kind of cool. In the interim, I have no false sense of security over any of this. For me personally if that card allows me to not live my life in a bubble it’s good enough for me in this FUBAR situation.
August 25, 2021 @ 1:32 am
I am vaccinated. Yesterday I submitted for a refund, canceling my trip to see Charley Crockett next month. Venue was mandating Vaccination proof. I refuse to do that. A man’s got have a code.
August 25, 2021 @ 11:26 am
Good for you. I support your right to decide what goes in your body.
August 25, 2021 @ 3:23 am
Once again, officials in California have been caught on camera exposing their own contempt for their own public health measures. Video has emerged from a Democratic fundraiser on Sunday morning in Napa Valley, just north of San Francisco. Nancy Pelosi was there. She’s got an estate nearby. So were other Democratic officials, as well as the party’s biggest donors, who paid $30,000 a ticket to be there. The first thing you notice about the group, other than how strikingly non-diverse it is, is that none of them are wearing masks. They’re breathing all the fresh air they want, like it’s 2019. The only people there in masks are their servants — faceless brown serfs, scurrying back and forth to bring them things. Nothing worse than having the help breathe on you. But that’s not a problem for Nancy Pelosi.
… It’s repulsive but revealing. It’s pretty clear at this point that Nancy Pelosi — our chief Covid enforcer — doesn’t believe a word she says about the virus. She’s 81 years old, deep in the risk range for the virus. She’s standing at a crowded event in Napa, which according to the Biden Administration’s color-coded map, is one of the riskiest places in the country for coronavirus transmission. Yet she’s not social distancing, or wearing a face shield. She doesn’t even have a mask on. She knows she’s not in danger. There are no Republicans present, so there’s no reason to pretend otherwise .
……………….
August 25, 2021 @ 7:15 am
I mean, they’re probably all vaccinated, and they know that everyone there is vaccinated.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:52 am
LOL sure thing, plebe.
August 25, 2021 @ 11:19 am
Why did Nancy make the black and brown faces wear masks?
How do you Pasty-Whites not see that folks like Nancy use your values against you, to maintain their own power.
Obviously you and I don’t share the same values, but until your side wakes up and realizes you’re being played by the elites, we’ll never even get to have a discussion about whose values are better.
You defending Nancy, would be the equivalent of me defending the Bush family.
August 25, 2021 @ 1:53 pm
Who says Nancy made the caterers, or staff, or whomever wear masks? That’s likely a mandate by their employer, which is not the democratic party. I’m an independent/unaffiliated and despise any politician that puts party over country (which is probably 99+% of politicians), so I’m not defending Nancy and couldn’t care less about her.
I love how people see a video clip and all the sudden know every detail of what’s going on.
August 25, 2021 @ 3:47 am
98% of scientists agree with whoever is funding them
August 25, 2021 @ 7:17 am
Typical BS inflamatory remark.
August 25, 2021 @ 6:01 am
That’s why I am for full lock down . The pandemic is not over and the vaccine is Not a cure. Look at new zealand 1 case and they lock down the entire country. If America did that and every one followed the guidelines then we could contain the virus.I agree with Arnold the terminator. SCREW FREEDOM. Safety is more important. With freedom comes responsibility and alot of people in this country do not take responsibility. We need to have mask mandates and social distancing along with vaccine cards every where and a total lock down of all businesses. And close down all airports. we would could contain the virus. Look at new zealand.1 case in the entire country. AMERICA WILL NEVER REACH THAT. Because of personal greed. People say it is my freedom not to wear a mask. And it is my right not to get sick if you cough on me while I am wearing a mask. I WILL STILL GET SICK. IF EVERYONE WEARS A MASK AND GETS VACCINATED THEN NO ONE GETS SICK. See how that works? Do not believe me? JUST ASK NEW ZEALAND. compare their number of cases to ours. Yeah masks and lock downs and vaccines DO WORK. AS LONG AS EVERY ONE DOES IT.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:21 am
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
New Zealand is also a set of islands with a population of 5 million.
The US has an insecure border, and has literal metropolitan areas bigger than New Zealand.
A complete shut down would never work in the US. Since you have no regard for the law, it would be pointless to explain why the President can’t unilaterally shut down the country. From a practical standpoint, it is physically impossible to fully lockdown 330,000,000 million people.
California and New York had some of the strictest lockdowns in the country, and look where they are now.
Saying that this virus will “go away” displays a fundamental lack of knowledge of Covid. It won’t go away, ever. That’s not the nature of the virus. It will keep changing, evolving, vary to infect new hosts.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:57 am
So if all 330 million people do the responsible thing wear masks, do social distancing, follow lock down rules, then the virus won’t be contained? And I never said it would go away i said it would be contained. Stop making excuses for right wingers refusal to be responsible. If all 5 million people can follow lock down rules so can 330 million people. Sorry you have no case. The reason it won’t work is because so many people won’t do it. If every one did it, the virus would be contained. That is just a fact. If new zealand can do it so can America. We all have to be willing to do it.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:55 am
Nope, from what I’m to understand at the moment it would not be contained with those measures. First off our southern border is leaking like a sieve. Maybe if the government offered full stop, immediate shutdown of immigration we’d have the start of a conversation. Even then mutations are happening too fast, cloth masks do little if anything to prevent spread and there probably aren’t enough N95s to go around for long enough to matter. Maybe there are enough N95s to use responsibly when we are around high risk individuals, but that’s just mitigation, not containment. Also, another full lockdown of that type (let alone series of them) could put us on the precipice of an epic economic collapse, which scares me more than the virus in terms of societal impacts. I’m not anti vaccine at all, and hope that it will alleviate some over-capacity issues in hospitals and care facilities. I hope it’ll do more than that but at this point it’s only a hope, evidence seems to be trending otherwise.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:04 am
Yep. It would be contained. Lock down includes closing down borders , travel bans, and closing down all businesses. It would work. It is what new zealand did. I am sorry you are too delusional to understand how reality works. A total lock down and every one following the rules would work.
August 26, 2021 @ 7:28 am
Uh oh. What happened to New Zealand? Didn’t they wear enough masks? Didn’t they get enough booster shots? Who was sinning against the government? Must be some evil rednecks from Florida or Alabama snuck into beautiful, pure, progressive New Zealand on their broken down Bayliners and fucked it all up. Cases up day-over-day for the past ten days. Looks like they might be on the verge of an outbreak….
August 25, 2021 @ 9:27 am
Tell you what, first get those borders locked down tight, zero leaks. If the government can find a way to get through that political and logistical super glue then I’ll bet a lot more folks would be willing to listen to the next steps. Good luck! Also, I sincerely hope calling me delusional lends itself to you having a good day.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:39 am
Sorry but the “screw freedom” argument is pretty offensive and short sighted. It also isn’t who we are as a nation and with some notable exceptions never really have been, so it’s ultimately nothing more than hot air. Safety without freedom is nothing and vice versa, there had to be a balance somewhere. I’ll wager that members of the Politburo felt pretty safe, yet at the same time I sure as hell don’t want to live in an anarchists America.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:52 am
I sure hoped this was satire, but it appears you’re 100% genuine. Sadly, it seems that so many in this country desperately crave authoritarianism. You do realize this virus kills hardly any healthy adults under the average life expectancy age in this country, correct? Your paranoia is out of control. Get in shape. Take vitamin D. Take care of your body.
You are completely free to lock down in your own basement. Wear 7 masks, shut your windows and blinds. Never leave. Nobody is stopping you from living out your own paranoid dystopian fantasy.
I’ve had the virus. Everyone in my family has, from elderly down to infants. I don’t care if I can or do get the virus again. We have this wonderful thing called an immune system. Let me live my life.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:55 am
I can’t tell if Countryfan68 is a troll or just a fascist.
August 25, 2021 @ 11:30 am
Sir Adam,
He’s neither one. He’s a Pasty-White; they do what they’re told.
August 25, 2021 @ 2:11 pm
You are a facist Trump supporter I want people to live. Trump supporters do not. By the way your master Trump said you should get the vaccine. Are you going to disobey your master?
August 25, 2021 @ 2:56 pm
Jeez, how pasty and white are you gonna get?
My master is the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Trump is just a flawed narcissist that I share some political views with, injecting experimental chemicals into my body not being one of them.
Tell me what you think fascism is, and then give me one example of a belief you think I hold that aligns with your definition.
August 25, 2021 @ 3:18 pm
jesus would wear a mask. remember, jesus tried to help people. he wasn’t harping about his personal freedoms and how they should be paramount over the ‘flock’ there is precedent in the bible for it and for social distancing.
Leviticus 13:45-46
45 “Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt,[a] cover the lower part of their face and cry out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46 As long as they have the disease they remain unclean. They must live alone; they must live outside the camp.
August 25, 2021 @ 2:52 pm
what’s a “Pasty-White”? someone with a desk job? the opposite of a redneck? do you keep spelling pasty and actually mean ‘patsy’ because you’re insinuating he’s easily taken advantage of (as you recycle someone else’s talking points)? what’s the insult here honky?
August 25, 2021 @ 2:54 pm
Move on guys. These back and forths are dumb.
August 26, 2021 @ 10:24 am
the gentile,
Jesus. His name starts with a capital J.
Wishing you a good upcoming weekend.
Get out there and enjoy it!
Whether from your porch, yard, deck, wherever
August 25, 2021 @ 6:00 pm
Ok fascist. Fascists are against homosexuality. Fascists are against transgenders. Facists are against socialists they are against homeless people. They are against women and minorities being equal to men. They are against equal rights for women, feminism, and LGBTQ rights. Afghanistan is anti-LGBTQ, and feminism, also, Fascist are radical nationalists who hate immigrants and want border security.
August 25, 2021 @ 6:43 pm
Ha! I just realized you’re doing a parody. You had me going for a minute there.
August 25, 2021 @ 2:07 pm
You are the fascist you are a Trump supporter. I just want people to live
August 25, 2021 @ 3:23 pm
No, you’re not the fascist; you just want the government to lock everyone inside their homes and keep them under house arrest for no crime by threat of punishment for an indeterminate length of time, which in turn forces businesses to shut down and livelihoods to be destroyed, meanwhile silencing any and all questions, concerns, and opposition to whatever you determine today’s truth to be.
That’s called being ignorant of your own ignorance.
August 25, 2021 @ 6:27 am
I think it is sad that conservatives turned keeping people healthy and alive into a political game. All businesses require you to wear shirts and shoes in their place. If you do not you do not get served. No body complains about not going bare foot into a store is taking away your freedom it is not. Just like requiring a mask. There is no difference. That is safety for the workers. And all public schools require your kids to be VACCINATED. against chicken pox and measles that is not taking Way your freedom. So what is the big deal about requiring a vaccine for covid. No difference. And alot of schools have dress codes. A mask requirement for safety reasons is no different . You have to wear a seat belt when you drive. Wearing a mask in businesses is no different. This is not a political issue this is a health issue. Now even Trump is telling people to get vaccinated. He said he did. And Trump hotels now have mask requirements. It is sad that so many people only care about themselves and do not care about getting others sick. This is why we will never get rid of covid. And we all lose in the end.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:31 am
Countryfan68,
Here’s what I think you should do. Go to Costco or Sams Club, buy one of those massive packages of Puffs Plus, and then just lock yourself down and cry it out for 90 days or so. I guarantee you’ll feel better.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:26 am
I would rather be alive than dead . If you get covid for being careless and irresponsible then I feel sorry for your even your leader Donald Trump is telling people to get vaccinated. He said he did. So you go to Costco, buy a mask, it is a cloth covering that goes over your mouth and nose. And stop spreading your germs to other people who do not want them.
August 25, 2021 @ 10:01 am
“I would rather be alive than dead.” It seems you either 1) don’t understand the data and the scant likelihood of dying from this virus, or 2) you are riddled with co-morbitities.
If (1) is correct, re-read the data and realize that you are likely to recover just fine if you catch Covid.
If (2) is correct because of no choice of your own, such as a health condition or disease, then I am truly sorry for you. I would hope that you could empathize with your fellow citizens who are otherwise healthy and allow them to live their lives in freedom while you remain isolated out of concern for your own health.
If (2) is correct because of your choices and lifestyle, I’d suggest that you take this time of isolation to practice healthy diet and exercise, giving your immune system everything it needs, while not demanding house arrest for everyone else who feels differently than you.
August 26, 2021 @ 11:47 pm
A nurse had a baby who died of covid. Because she caught it from some one who would not wear a mask or get vaccinated. She got it while she was pregnant so when the baby was born she died from covid. So because of some body wanting their stupid freedom a baby died because of their carelessness. So there is your freedom . Your freedom means nothing to me. So you go out and cough on some one and get them sick. Sorry you lose. I hope more places start total lock downs so more innocent people won’t die. I am more pro life than any conservative is.
August 25, 2021 @ 10:03 am
You’re dead already.
August 26, 2021 @ 11:52 pm
You are brain dead. I want people to live. I do not want selfish non caring people to die from covid. I care I want no one to die from this virus. You may not care but I do.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:00 am
No body invited you. Quit talking about yourself like that. Besides your master Trump told you to get vaccinated. Are you not going to listen to your master?
August 25, 2021 @ 11:08 pm
Fuck small businesses, amiright Countryfan68? Think how great it’ll be when they’ve all gone under thanks to months of being unproductive and we just get everything we could ever possibly need from Amazon, Wal-Mart, or the government! At least we’ll all be safe! Well, except for the ones left destitute, the ones who committed suicide, etc, but oh well they were just keeping us from going back to the way we were back when the economy was open and thriving…
How about this, screw your idea of safety, I’d rather live in a free society than a despotic culture where having your face uncovered means you are publicly shamed.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:11 am
I’ve been to several outdoor concerts this summer. Some required proof of vaccination/negative test, and some did not. I gotta say the ones that required proof just felt a lot safer. People in the crowd were a lot more conscientious, for one thing. And I don’t buy your argument that vaccinated people are more likely to spread Covid. Sure, they are more likely to be asymptomatic, but they are also more likely to take precautions such as wearing a mask, or not visiting elderly relatives days after attending a crowded concert.
We hear a lot about freedom when it comes to these issues, but if you look at what actual libertarians are saying, it’s not what you might think. They tend to support the vaccines, because they believe in the power of the free market to deliver solutions. They also believe in the right of individual businesses to make their own policies. So if a venue wants to require proof of vaccination, that’s “freedom” too, just as much as an individual choosing not to wear a mask.
Of course, you’re also using your freedom of speech to advocate for how you think this should all be handled. And we’re all doing the same as we respond. And that’s pretty much how this should all go. It’s difficult to figure out what’s safe and what’s not right now. Everyone has to do what they think is best, given their individuals situations.
When in doubt, get a good doctor and follow his or her advice. Someone who went to medical school is in a better position to make recommendations than someone who didn’t.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:04 am
“I gotta say the ones that required proof just felt a lot safer.”
So for you, it’s the illusion of safety and how it makes you all warm and fuzzy inside.
“And I don’t buy your argument that vaccinated people are more likely to spread Covid.”
His argument is based off of a scientific study, you stain.
Wilson Pick It: “I don’t buy your argument that vaccinated people are more likely to spread Covid.”
Also Wilson Pick It: “..but they are also more likely to take precautions such as wearing a mask.”
So which is it, Bubble Wrap Boy?
August 25, 2021 @ 9:11 am
Bubble wrap boy? I just told you I’ve been to several crowded events this summer, both with vaccinated and mixed crowds. Then I advocated a libertarian POV, hardly the equivalent of never leaving the house. Yeah, I take some precautions such as getting vaccinated and wearing mask in certain situations such as a public restroom. Why does that bother you? I don’t get people like you.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:37 am
I would agree that people who take the vaccine are also more likely to take this matter more seriously as a general rule. But I think the lack of honesty by the health establishment about the amount of breakthrough cases in fear it will discourage people from getting vaccinated (they continue to say they are “extremely rare” when some preliminary estimates they may be as much as 40% of new cases) speaks to the serious dangers of asymptomatic spread. And simply put, moving outdoor events indoors as a commonplace practice as opposed to vice versa when we know this virus spreads more easily indoors and there just won’t be the same capabilities for social distancing seems like a counterproductive move that I saw NOBODY broaching.
I don’t consider myself a libertarian. I do have very serious concerns about limiting access to live musical events, not just in the immediate term, but after the pandemic (hopefully) subsides, and promoters and venues choose to continue to keep mandates up, or mandate other things to limit the types of clientele that can participate. But honestly, the main point of this particular article was the health issues involved here. We still need more research, but there’s a good chance vaccinated people are just as likely to be carriers of the disease at this point as the unvaccinated. Assuming otherwise very well might be one of the main drivers behind Delta.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:19 am
I agree that the vaccines were… oversold is I guess the word, early on. But I’m not convinced that a crowd of vaccinated people is less safe that a crowd of unvaccinated people. The unvaxxed crowd is more likely to lead to hospitalizations, deaths, etc., in my opinion. But you’re right that some people have a false sense of security.
August 25, 2021 @ 12:43 pm
I wonder if anyone has checked to see what the risk level is between asymptomatic vaccinated people spreading the virus and asymptomatic unvaccinated people? Checked physically, like by putting them in a sealed room for a period of time then taking an air sample and counting the virus particles. If the vaccinated people are significantly safer to be around then vaccine mandates would work but if there’s no difference a temperature check should work and turning away anyone coughing even if they don’t have a fever. That’s assuming asymptomatic breakthrough cases are as high as some sources say and that the type of vaccine doesn’t make a difference.
August 25, 2021 @ 12:50 pm
That’s basically what the Oxford study linked above was about, though they didn’t use sealed rooms, they had more than three million test subjects who received nose and throat swabs, and measured their viral load. Also, everyone is saying that the asymptotic vaccinated carriers need to be studied more to determine the extent of the risk, but preliminarily, the belief is they are just as likely to spread the disease, if not more because they’re unaware they have it and don’t quarantine.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:19 am
Who could have predicted the comments section would descend into heated discussion from illustrious experts in the fields of vaccination and virology?
August 25, 2021 @ 7:27 am
Why?
Can we not just talk about f#$king music?
Saving Country Music has for a long time been my very first stop every morning, while enjoying my coffee. Between this shit and all the stupid BS that comes up every time someone mentions Jason Isbell, I am pretty close to deleting the bookmark.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:17 am
JF,
First off, thank you for your comment and feedback. Do not for a second think that I don’t hear this concern from yourself and others, and that for every comment like this, there’s probably ten others thinking this, but don’t make the effort to comment. Y’all are my readers, and without readers, I don’t have a website, and I don’t have a job. I think about these matters often, and take these comments seriously.
That said, I have to respectfully disagree with you and others that say these matters have nothing to do with music. This has absolutely everything to do about music. These matters are existential to the music you love. That is the reason I’m willing to risk losing readers, or undermining my standing among my peers in the media to broach such subjects. That’s how critical they are.
You may not care about these issue, or care to read about them, and I 100% respect that. I feel honored that folks want to read every article I post. But some articles are just not for everyone. I’ve never picked up a magazine, or a newspaper, or gone to a website, and felt that if every single article posted there does not appeal to me, then the entire periodical is a total loss and I would never go back. I pick and choose what appeals to me. That is why I commonly post multiple articles on a given day. I posted two other articles yesterday beyond this one. I posted another this morning. I have more on the way. If something doesn’t appeal to you specifically, my suggestion would be just don’t read it. But don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
And finally, I would like for people to appreciate that this is my platform for presenting the ideas, opinions, and facts to forward the cause of saving country music. I respect that a lot of folks use it primarily as a music recommendation site, and I am more happy to help serve that purpose. But the reason I started Saving Country Music 13 years ago was just as much to discuss the serious issues involving the country music industry that are integral to the music itself. Again, completely understand this content may not appeal to everyone, and it’s unfortunate that in the past few years, this has taken a decidedly political bend, just like everything else in American society.
But not participating in the debate when folks are literally trying to undermine the country genre is not an option my conscience can handle. It’s unfortunate that while people decidedly outside of the country fold are curiously supported as they try to undermine country from the outside looking in, when you try to defend country music, you’re undermined by country fans themselves and cries of “just talk about the music!” But that is the dynamic. I have been trying to brainstorm ways to separate divisive subject such as this one from the other content on the site. But since this is the format where I can actually reach the masses, and any others would start from scratch, there is no easy solution. But I continue to search.
Hope this makes some bit of sense to you and others who share these concerns, and thanks for reading.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:02 am
…careful trigger, astrazeneca’s vaccine is not a mrna vaccine, hence its slighly inferior protection ratios
August 25, 2021 @ 9:12 am
*yawn*. Can we just talk about music…
August 25, 2021 @ 9:19 am
https://savingcountrymusic.com/how-vaccine-mandates-at-concerts-can-create-false-sense-of-security/comment-page-1/#comment-1308542
August 25, 2021 @ 9:16 am
If YOU have the vaccine, What the fuck are you worried about? Common sense isnt so common any more.
August 25, 2021 @ 12:01 pm
They know it doesn’t work very good, and they can’t stand it that you won’t do what they did. You must conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform. Conform.
Got it? Conform you effing racist!
August 25, 2021 @ 2:05 pm
I would tend to agree; however, there are now areas where there are zero pediatric ICU beds because they’re full with covid patients. If a child gets into a car accident in those places, they now have to go further to get the medical attention they need. If we ever get to the point where the actions of unvaccinated morons don’t effect the health and safety of those who choose to get vaccinated, then those of who are vaccinated shouldn’t give a damn who isn’t. Unfortunately that’s not the case.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:27 am
If herd immunity will never happen, are we going to live like this forever? Get vaccinated and live your life. If you are unvaccinated, or have health/immunity issues, etc., maybe you just shouldn’t be going to concerts right now.
August 25, 2021 @ 10:10 am
Even though I’m vaccinated and a vaccine supporter, I don’t believe in allowing unnecessary entertainment to dictate my medical decisions or allowing random venues access to my medical information. This will end concert going for me.
August 25, 2021 @ 10:13 am
Well, I don’t know what the best solution is. I’m not an expert. My feelings are however, let’s just open it all back up. Just go back to the way it was in 2019. Because we will never get everyone on the same page to do what needs to be done. A non-political issue was made political by the news media and here we are. I got my two shots I wear my mask. And I do think businesses should conduct things how they see fit sure (i.e. No shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service). But the idea that this could lead to another quarantine… I cannot handle seeing anymore local businesses close (they may close anyway for other reasons) while the megacorps just sail on like nothing happened. I refuse to let it just be Starbucks, Target, and Wallmart in every city.
August 25, 2021 @ 1:15 pm
I agree with you, but would also say that I don’t think many are arguing for any sort of shut-down. Some leisure activities (concerts, dining) may install vaccine mandates, and some essential activities (groceries, travel) may install mask mandates, but I don’t see any restrictions beyond that getting put into place again.
August 25, 2021 @ 10:16 am
I’m genuinely confused what you’re argument is in this article.
At this point, vaccine mandates are in place to incentivize people to get the shot, and to not needlessly send people to the OCU. A fully vaccinated concert is safe in the sense that anyone who contracts Covid will very likely not need hospital care.
The barriers to getting a vaccine don’t even compare to the barriers it takes to afford $100 concert tickets + travel via cars or ubers.
You’re point against vaccine mandates is that vaccinated people can still get the virus. But it’s very unlikely they’ll fill up ICU beds, so it doesn’t pose much of a public health risk.
It’s not a “false sense of security”, it is a very positive sense of security for the hospital that’s 4 miles away from the venue.
August 25, 2021 @ 11:24 am
The argument is that the moving of events from outdoors to indoors as a way to facilitate vaccine mandates as illustrated by Jason Isbell, Garth Brooks and others is completely unsound logic according to recent studies on the Delta variant, what we know about indoor vs. outdoor transmission of COVID-19, and a majority of infectious disease experts. It’s certainly not meant to discourage vaccination, or even necessarily vaccine mandates. But with multiple artists making this move and nobody pointing out this flawed reasoning, it seemed important to enter into the public discourse.
Yes, vaccinated individuals tend to have better health outcomes. But as the Oxford study cited above indicates, they’re also more likely to be asymptomatic carriers, meaning they could be more likely to unknowingly pass it to someone under 12 who cannot be vaccinated, someone who is elderly, immune compromised, has a pre-existing condition, or cannot be vaccinated for a host of reasons.
The point here is not to retreat to one side of the binary argument around vaccines, but to broaden the discussion around how the music community should be addressing Delta variant concerns.
August 25, 2021 @ 11:52 am
I agree that outdoor venues are better than indoor venues, even if there are mask mandates.
But the title of the article is “How Vaccine Mandates at Concerts Can Create False Sense of Security”. And the tone of the article is that mandates won’t work.
Mandates at indoor venues prevent unvaxxed folks from being around the virus in a contagious setting. That will help curb the influx of unvaxxed patients headed to the ICU. And that itself is a sense of security for the community.
It’d be great if artists all chose to play outdoor venues, but that doesn’t mean mandates indoors are a bad. The two are not mutually exclusive.
August 25, 2021 @ 12:03 pm
Here is a preprint (not yet peer reviewed) study that shows vaccinated people may actually not spread the virus.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1
August 25, 2021 @ 10:19 am
For record I will say I always thought of you as a journalist first and music critic second. So I appreciate all the discussion that are had here and have linked many non-review topic to other places I frequent/work with to bring more discussion to a topic.
August 25, 2021 @ 12:07 pm
The virus is now endemic, mutating, and will be seasonal like the flu. This kind of pattern is well-established and well-known.
Lack of vaccine efficacy over time has nothing to do with Delta. Average half-life of neutralizing activity in the vaccinees was approximately 67.8 days and the average time length for their serums to lose the detectable neutralizing activity was 198.3 days.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261952v1
Incidentally, ask yourself: why get a booster of a vaccine that’s not very effective against the dominant variant if you’re worried about Delta?
If you’re pregnant, or know women who are, read the FDA “approval” documents for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, which is now called “COMIRNATY” (who makes this crap up?). Excerpts: “Available data on COMIRNATY administered to pregnant women are insufficient to inform vaccine-associated risks in pregnancy … It is not known whether COMIRNATY is excreted in human milk … COMIRNATY has not been evaluated for the potential to cause carcinogenicity, genotoxicity, or impairment of male fertility … The safety and effectiveness of COMIRNATY in individuals younger than 16 years of age have not been established.”
Natural immunity is best. The best course of action is for healthy people under 70 to get the milder strain (and coming strains) and protect the small number of people around them who are really vulnerable. There is no proof that masking has any effect on the spread of Covid.
If you’re over 70, diabetic, obese, a smoker, and immuno-compromised, you probably should avoid going to large concert gatherings.
If you’re a musician who wants to put on big concerts, ask your customers to sign an electronic waiver.
August 25, 2021 @ 1:38 pm
To everyone saying, “Just get back to the music!”: most of the artists covered and reviewed on this website are dependent on live shows to continue to make music. I have heard of several people who have had to get non-music related jobs to make a living over the last 18 months, so talking about the virus (and the reaction to said virus) and how it has and continues to effect musicians is very much a music topic. No live shows equals no income and a diminished fan base. How many people gave up on a music career just because it has been nearly impossible to make a living at it, especially last year? Could they have been the next Tyler Childers or Sierra Ferrell? It’s a precarious and fickle living, and most don’t make it. I would say that number is even lower now.
August 25, 2021 @ 2:08 pm
Exactly.
August 25, 2021 @ 3:18 pm
It’s game over for the unvaccinated. Since the FDA approved the vaccination, universities and corporations have been moving a lightning speed to require vaccination for their employees and students. To do anything by October, everyone needs to be vaccinated or medically exempt.
I just download the Clear app which will ultimately be used to scan a unique bar code on your phone that will be scanned at major events to gain admittance (after your medical info is verified) . I assume by October, the bugs will be worked out.
It’s time for everyone to put on their big boy/girl pants and get vaccinated. There is no other option at this point.
August 25, 2021 @ 4:37 pm
Amen!
August 25, 2021 @ 5:55 pm
“It’s game over for the unvaccinated.”
You have GOT to be kidding
August 25, 2021 @ 6:18 pm
Nope. There’s stated policy, and then there’s implementation. Every organization I know is implementing with a light touch.
August 25, 2021 @ 6:30 pm
There are already shortages of workers in so many industries. I think most corporations will threaten and cajole, at most, before they actually do anything. But, remember, big corporations own the government, so whatever policy the statist monsters are pushing is what the corporatists want. My fear is that the supposed labor shortage will be used as a pretext to bring millions more third worlders here and/or outsource at an even greater rate.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:12 pm
RD,
That is why the border with Mexico is open and now they are importing “refugees” from Afghanistan after a deliberately botched pull-out.
All part of the plan. I am sure the GOP will fight it. Not.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:33 pm
CK,
Did you notice all the red-state governors attempting to “own the Libs” by begging Biden to send Afganis to their states? What a joke.
“We’ll show those pesky Democrats that WE’RE the virtuous ones!”
August 25, 2021 @ 7:59 pm
Honky, this is way off topic. Let’s keep this on the topic at hand.
August 25, 2021 @ 6:52 pm
Weak punks like you, give me life and strength. The more you cry, the stronger my resolve grows. I’m ready for whatever’s coming, but I guarantee you’re not.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:57 pm
Count Honky of Crackervania holding it down ????
August 25, 2021 @ 8:22 pm
Dude, Jake, these days there’s not much I find more disgusting than serfs bragging about their own serfdom, and telling me that I’ll be a little punk serf just like them soon.
My rights come from above, and I’m not surrendering them to the Branch Covidian Church.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:20 pm
Everyone, including you, are already a freedomless “serfs.” If you blindly drink the chlorine levels from the tap and digest the steroids in your beef and the pesticides on your vegetables, it seems selfish to draw the line at a vaccination benefiting society’s health? This hasn’t been the land of the free for centuries, but it’s the land of the many. And the many have ruled in favor for the vaccination.
August 25, 2021 @ 9:44 pm
Yep, see my comment below. I’m vaccinated myself, due to some personal circumstances, but I’m 100% against forcing you to do it, whether it’s by the state, corporations, or the “many.” It would have to be far, far more dangerous than it is for me to even consider aborning that principle.
And here this dude is gloating about what app he will use to prove his obedience, because he eats hormone injected beef so therefore he might as well not even care.
August 26, 2021 @ 9:58 am
“My rights come from above, and I’m not surrendering them to the Branch Covidian Church.””
Honky, what an excellent statement.
Yes indeed,
This is a David Koresh, Jim Jones type cult. Worldwide cult of the covidists.
Look at the millions upon, who are drinking the purple Kool-Aid, as it were.
How many of the vaccinated & those wringing their hands about when they can get their next booster, have uttered the words, “I’m not drinking the purple Kool-Aid!” Or words to that effect?
August 26, 2021 @ 1:43 pm
……“It would have to be far, far more dangerous than it is for me to even consider aborning that principle”……
Jake, that’s something else the Branch Covidians don’t get: If there were a truly detrimental pandemic going on, and an actual vaccine were created to fight it, you wouldn’t have to mandate anything; 90% of the population would take it willingly.
Heck, if all the talking heads would just come out and fess up to their lies, and start being transparent about everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, I’ll bet they could inject another 10% of the population on that alone.
August 26, 2021 @ 6:06 pm
Exactly. Mass over-exaggeration, politicization, fear mongering, steps towards authoritarianism, and censorship haven’t really helped the cause.
And then you have the dumb lack of logic that Trigger is talking about with which events are being cancelled in favor of ones that are far worse, the virtue signaling, the gloating, the open calls for discrimination and treating people as second class citizens, as seen in this comment section. I’m way more afraid of the mass psychosis than the virus.
August 26, 2021 @ 6:08 am
I don’t think I’m weak. I think I’m doing what my grandparents would have done. They were labeled the Greatest Generation because they selflessly sacrificed for this county (they didn’t sit around and whine and cry based on principle or some Trump-ed up ideology). They both dropped out of school (one went to war, the other building bomber parts in a factory). Their parents – poor as dirt – scraped up every penny to fund the war.
This vaccination isn’t about you and me. It’s about protecting and respecting the overtaxed healthcare workers and the fragile system. It’s about respecting your neighbors, the elderly and the already health compromised.
It’s about doing your part to be a better American. And that will prevail over some weak ideology that it’s more American to resist the vaccination on principle.
If I’m being brutally honest, I feel those who refuse to eat vaccinated based on principle are second class citizens – insurgents, tax evaders, leeches on our republic.
August 26, 2021 @ 10:12 am
“I feel”
Then try thinking.
August 26, 2021 @ 8:22 pm
“I think I’m doing what my grandparents would have done. They were labeled the Greatest Generation because they selflessly sacrificed for this county (they didn’t sit around and whine and cry based on principle or some Trump-ed up ideology).”
Hoptown,
Damn straight your grandparents, my grandparents, & lots of others were labeled the Greatest Generation.
Can guarantee we would not be in this predicament if your grandparents generation were in charge.
Biden would not be in the White House.
The greatest pyramid/quadrangle scheme to date (covid) would have already been quashed, and the major players already taken out.
God Bless that generation.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:03 pm
Get vaccinated or else!
Sounds like the land of the free to me.
August 25, 2021 @ 7:30 pm
Only in 2021 could herdlike compliance and cowardice be considered putting on your big boy pants.
August 25, 2021 @ 8:12 pm
even ol’ george washington himself had his soldiers vaccinated. so i guess maybe it never was? (by your standards)
August 26, 2021 @ 4:50 pm
Smallpox had a much higher death rate and they were in the middle of a war.
August 25, 2021 @ 10:21 pm
Glad to hear that The Steel Woods just took a stand against this. They canceled their own shows where this mandate was put in place.
August 26, 2021 @ 9:44 am
Rock On, Steel Woods!
Way to show some balls!
You have my respect
August 26, 2021 @ 8:59 am
I refuse, on principle, to attend any event that requires proof of vaccination.
August 26, 2021 @ 12:21 pm
promise? more room for everyone else. nice.
August 26, 2021 @ 3:23 pm
Gentile, I don’t expect you’ll agree with anything I say, but you should realize that Dave F probably represents close to 50% of a given market for live music. If you’re good with him boycotting it, then enjoy that “more room” while it lasts. Because it won’t.
August 26, 2021 @ 3:28 pm
Yes. My wife and I just canceled tickets for a bunch of events (not just music) which are requiring the sheep card. Two local restaurants (owned by transplants, obviously) recently walked back their sheep card requirements.
August 26, 2021 @ 7:29 pm
LOL the sheep card. Don’t leave home without it. Literally.
August 26, 2021 @ 4:04 pm
so musicians shouldnt get involved in political statements, but country music writers can opine on medical matters?
consistency not your strong suit.
August 26, 2021 @ 4:35 pm
I wouldn’t say I’m opining on medical matters. I cited a study from Oxford University, another study that brought together 27 infectious disease experts, and a 28th infectious disease expert to point out the clearly flawed logic that taking outdoor events and moving them indoors under the idea this makes them safer from COIVD-19 is incorrect.
August 26, 2021 @ 4:28 pm
How the fuck can this many idiots like good music? Jesus H. Christ, this is one of the most fucked up sites on the internet. A bunch of fake name nutters, except the indomitable Di Harris. Maybe the majority of your article readers are Q MAGAs, but the majority of your commenters certainly are. How the hell can you stomach your own website? Require proven, valid names. It would lessen this shit and make it less likely people would assume you’re an intel. Bloody hell.
August 26, 2021 @ 5:40 pm
My accountant’s name is Doug Carter. Is that you? If so, I’m finding a new accountant…
August 27, 2021 @ 1:19 am
Aww….
August 26, 2021 @ 4:49 pm
I’m on my 38th booster already.
August 26, 2021 @ 11:24 pm
Though I fully endorse vax and mask mandates, I am through trying to convince or cajole others.
I am fully vaxed and wear a mask. I’m not taking any chances on myself or on others around me
I do not want to spreading if I carry and wish to.lower my risks ny wearing a mask. I know there are no guarantees on getting infected again by social contact. And with that in mind, I have to take that risk going to the market or the doctor, I’m not going to voluntarily take the risk by participating in something unnecessary like a concert. With all the additional risks it’s just not worth it to take life in ones hands to hear a singer off key over a bunch of screaming/cellphone using fans.
Sheep cards, Maga nuts, libertarians, right wing evangelicals, the superstitious, the ignorant,, Trotskyites aside. To me this is not a political issue, it is an issue about how we treat ourselves and others. Amazing how teachings of being concerned for others, common good and selflessness go out the window. Such hypocrisy about not trusting science/medical etc but will go to the doctor for a cold, high blood pressure or chemo huh?
Such a shame that concerts are yet another political flashpoint.
August 27, 2021 @ 12:59 pm
Though I fully reject vax and mask mandates, I will continue to mock and ridicule those who do not.
I am not vaxed and will never wear a mask. My health profile, along with available data, tells me there is no logical reason to do either. There is no evidence to show that asymptotic spread is a significant threat to life, and there is ample data to show that masks are ineffective. I know there are no guarantees on getting infected by social contact. And with that in mind, I have to take that risk going to the market or the doctor. I would also be taking that risk if I went to something unnecessary, like a concert. But, with the risk being minimal at worst, I’d have no concern going to hear one of my favorite artists perform live.
Because of Vaccine passports, the TDS inflicted, totalitarians, leftwing secularists, the humanists/God-hating, the ignorant, to me this is very clearly a POLItical issue, because those who disagree with me are advocating for POLIcies that infringe on my individual liberty, which is multi-faceted. It’s also an issue about how we treat ourselves and others. It’s not really surprising that the world in which we currently live, which ignores teachings of being concerned with others, common good, and selflessness, then suddenly misapplies and misunderstands those teachings in an attempt to use them against their own adherents.
Such a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is, along with the misguided belief that all scientists or doctors agree on everything, or that corruption can’t occur in any industry. Such intellectual dishonesty in comparing a request for treatment for a condition someone has, to attempting to compel someone to use a product they do not need, huh?
Such a shame that concerts are yet another POLItical flashpoint.
See what I did there? I took your comment, and reversed the perspective. Like you, I said very little of substance, and refuted nothing. Like you, I did nothing to prove anything.
The difference? You probably thought your comment was that of an intellectual mastermind, while I know I’m just a cracker on the internet with an opinion and a keyboard. Not to say that I didn’t form my opinion from reading information that I trust, but I hope you get my point.
August 28, 2021 @ 12:59 am
I just made a statement, not an argument. Like you I am taking my own “personal liberties” based on own “health profile” (I have asthma and cancer among other things). As far as debate about corruption, it’s all over doctors, science. business, …and politicians, talk show hosts and religious figures. As far as virus passports and “privacy”, I would worry more about the info gathered from your spending habits, your debit card, your GPS, your ISP Facebook, etc. And as far as “compelled vacvines” and “solicited treatment” that argument fails because both of those things come from the same “corrupted” source you talk about(?).
I make no affronts about being “profound” other than to say we both drink our respective Kool Aid the difference will be which one is more lethal.
August 28, 2021 @ 10:23 am
Chuck, & Corncaster,
Going to join in (hope that’s ok).
First off:
Chuck, standing with you on the whole cancer thing.
Eat what you know is good for you. Exercise as you can, get some fresh air.
Talk to God.
Try to ease your stress, with whatever works.
Full left breast mastectomy & partial right breast mastectomy, June 6th, 2012, (Amarillo, TX.) Plastic surgeon immedialtely followed oncology surgeon, same day. Because i am a healthcare professional, told the plastic surgeon, don’t worry about getting the nipples just right, i know i’m not your only patient.
She looked directly at me, in her office and said, “Nobody makes a nipple like God.”
Cannot begin to tell you what that meant to me as a woman.
Having parts of your body cut off, is interesting to say the least.
Dr. Michael Lary, & Dr. Mary Ann Piskun, both in Amarillo, i will love for the rest of my life.
Am both empathetic, and one hardcore bitch of a scientist.
Every person who comes to me as a patient, gets 100% of all benefits of my knowledge, plus the cumulative knowledge of fellow nuclear scientists, specialists and Dr’s. & We Network, Worldwide.
Cumulative KNOWLEDGE is not to be taken lightly.
Not to be mistaken with cumulative group think which can be deadly.
Not only in terms of lives manipulated, but hit all areas across the socioeconomic spectrum.
As we are seeing in music.
The Dr’s at the ranching hospital & i, along with the nuclear pharmacy (nuclear hot lab) out of Amarillo, with our nuclear courier, the one and only irrepressible, & funny as hell, Richard Barnett, had a great gig going.
The Dr’s would find me wherever, say on a fast walk on one of the treadmills at the local Y (the only gym of choice) at 8:00 at night, & i would activate everyone in the nuclear chain, the on call hot lab person, Richard, (or another D.O.T. licensed courier) and within 6 to 8 hours of a gallbladder patient being NPO, they would be in surgery.
As unlikely as it would seem, trust me, if your gallbladder needed to come out, you were lucky it needed to come out in our little ranching town. We got the job done.
Again Chuck, with you in thought.
Stay strong
August 28, 2021 @ 4:23 pm
Di Harris;
…”Cumulative KNOWLEDGE is not to be taken lightly. Not to be mistaken with cumulative group think which can be deadly”…
That’s the most appropriate thing I have read in a long time and clearly quantifies ALL that is wrong now. Like you I am a “scientist”(network engineering) and take it seriously. There is always a margin for error and even that is lessened by peerreview, studies and ecperience. However when that error is based on supposition, personal opinion, ignorance or misinformation instead of vetted facts or science we are in trouble.An this is playing out now with a vengeance. If this was a bunch of doctors and scientists debating this in a room I would be listening carefully. But when this is driven by politicians, talk show hosts, preachers and other persons who shouldn’t be practicing medicine, I am disappointed.
Thank you for sharing your courageous experience and insight.. I too am a survivor (lymph cancer when I was a teen and then again (prostate)at 56 last year). I’ve been looking at life through that lens for a long time and take nothing for granted. I appreciate Science as a miraculous gift from God, not some man made contrivance. With that, I’m disappointed that the charitable teaching of the Bible, especially how we should treat each other go out the window to make a selfish point. And from an ethical point of view where do “personal liberties” end and common good take precedence. I’ll take a lot of heat for saying that, but I don’t care.
Regards…
August 28, 2021 @ 11:03 am
Chuck,
For what it’s worth (I know my opinion about your life means approximately ????.), I think you made the right decision in taking the “vaccine”(quotes because it’s actually a therapeutic), due to you being at a higher risk of dying from a Covid infection than the general population due to your risk factors. I’d also like to apologize for maybe overestimating the level of condescension in your original comment. I’m on edge. I go to the grocery store cocked to go off (non-violently) on the next Karen or Neal that says something to me about not having a mask on. If I believed me wearing a mask would prevent someone from dying, then I’d wear one. But I’m 100% sure (0 doubt) that masks are nothing more than a talisman, and I’m not going to partake.
To me, the “vaccine” passports aren’t a privacy issue. They’re a nobody-has-a-right-to-force-me-to-inject-a-substance-into-my-body-issue. Yes, I know I’m not being forced to go to concerts, but this will be everywhere if it isn’t stopped now. And if it gets everywhere, it’s going to make John Brown look like a weekend warrior; I don’t want that. Frankly, I’m terrified of it. I love creature comforts as much as anybody, well not anybody, but I love them.
Chuck, there are folks on this website and all over the world advocating for compelled vaccination. That’s not a conspiracy.
Let’s remind ourselves of the current infection fatality rates for Covid 19.
Age Group Infection Fatality Rate
0-19 0.00003%
20-49 0.0002%
50-69 0.005%
70+ 0.054%
I don’t believe that you’re drinking Kool-Aid for using a product that might give you a net benefit. It’s only Kool-Aid when you allow an unwarranted fear to cause you to despise folks who don’t want to use the product themselves.
Here’s what I would suggest to you or any other leftist. Stop assuming you’re the smartest, most enlightened and informed person that ever lived, and try to figure out why so many people are so vehemently opposed to this. If you don’t, I can guarantee you that hell is coming for this whole country. I spend a lot of time worrying about that. In the entirety of human history, land, assets, human rights etc. have never been transferred PEACEFULLY from one group to another, and they never will be.
August 28, 2021 @ 12:45 pm
My apologies, Chuck. I just spread misinformation due to shoddy math conversion from decimal to percentage on my part.
Here are the survival rates.
99.997%
99.98%
99.5%
94.6%
So this would be the correct fatality rates:
0.003%
0.02%
0.5%
5.4%
Still very low. As we already knew, ages 70+ are the folks we should be most concerned about.
August 28, 2021 @ 7:10 am
Music lovers need to think and think consistently on the basis of real data and aggregate statistics. We cannot make good decisions about our musical life together unless we base those decisions on the truth and nothing but the truth. I know it’s controversial, but the focus has to be there.
Lots of musician-types and their fans are empathic feelers. They are not hardcore mathematicians, scientists, and statisticians. For that reason, it can be hard to hear them think they’re gaining the high ground and winning arguments by saying things like this:
“it is an issue about how we treat ourselves and others [and] being concerned for others, common good and selflessness”
Perhaps what is not understood here is that if these concerns are not grounded firmly in the truth, they become IMPEDIMENTS to finding the truth. They throw a feel-good blanket over the whole issue and consider it somehow resolved. What’s worse, they end up discrediting the very values they’re trying to uphold at the same time they feel justified in telling everybody else what to do and how to live their lives.
If that’s not “political,” I don’t know what is.
I’m going to pick on Chuck (sorry Chuck) not for any personal reason but because the following phrases illustrate just how self-contradictory this general common good mentality can be:
“I fully endorse vax and mask mandates [yet] I have to take that risk going to the market (?)
I’m not taking any chances [yet] I know there are no guarantees on getting infected again (?)
I wish to lower my risks by wearing a mask [yet] With all the additional risks it’s just not worth it to take life in ones hands (?)
Maga nuts, libertarians, right wing evangelicals, the superstitious, hypocrisy about not trusting science/medical etc [yet] this is not a political issue” (?)
This will be irritating, but I think this Covid situation has been especially hard for the arts because artists are not temperamentally suited to making policy decisions based on a rigorous examination of evidence. I say this with great love and respect for musicians (their great gifts are in other areas): you should take steps to protect the most vulnerable (for example, stream to them) AND be beacons of freedom and freedom of expression for the young and healthy.
Sorry for the rant, but music and freedom are worth fighting for.
August 28, 2021 @ 11:49 am
No self contradiction here. Read closely. As I said there are risks I have to take, like going to get a treatment, but there are ones I refuse to take like risking an risk something unnecessary, like a concert. That’s a risk assessment, not contradiction. And in that action, I know I will encounter those not masked/vaxed – so I’ll mask to again, mitigate risk. It’s not a contradiction, its a statement of fact of the risks and working to get important things done.
Partially agree with the “empathetic feelers” stuff. It’s a mind blower that one will go overboard with a belief system to their own detriment. Such a shame that, in light of evidence, wanting to belive something is true overrides harsh realities. Perhaps “empathetic feelers” can be associated with “delusional” as well (I’ll have to check the DSM-V for that). There is alot to be said about “settings one feelings aside…”.
Politics…well I mentioned the spectrum of points of view, but did not indicate a persuasion for any, instead wanted to posit that, no matter the thought, there is error and contradiction on all sides, not just one and I their ardor words are lost.
And with that there are a lot of “contradictions”….they’re called great areas.
August 28, 2021 @ 3:42 pm
Your Majesty;
Don’t assume or judge I’m a “leftist”, “elitist” or “enlighrened” because I chose one way and you choose another; (that’s actually a libertarian concept). In this situation here, I’m done trying to understand anyone or anything other than the harm it does to me – that’s all I tried to say. And as far as the hypocritical bitching about violating personal liberties, mandates, property rights etc and all that, the “right” is guilty as the”left” with forcefully instilling of will.
August 29, 2021 @ 7:05 pm
Chuck, you have my sincerest and most respectful wishes that you beat that cancer.
August 29, 2021 @ 10:46 pm
Thanks…managing that.
August 30, 2021 @ 1:12 pm
Fox News has mandated vaccine passports.
You can’t get into the building without the jab(s).
September 1, 2021 @ 11:09 am
How many venues that require proof of vaccination to enter the building and see a show were bailed out through the Save Our Stages Act? Pretty ballsy to beg taxpayers to keep you afloat and then turn around and deny those same taxpayers the right to enter your establishment. Hope more artists start to take the approach of the Steel Woods and cancel shows at these venues