Many Questions Remain About the Death of Mark Capps

With so many news stories coming and going each day even within the country music realm, it can be easy to forget or move on from the story of a music engineer you probably never heard of getting gunned down by the police. Let’s face it, Mark Capps was not a household name, even among dedicated country music fans.
Nonetheless, Mark Capps was a prolific and important studio engineer with credits tracing back to 1991 for work on albums from Dolly Parton, Alabama, The [Dixie] Chicks, Brooks & Dunn, Clay Walker, Elizabeth Cook, The Mavericks, and The Isaacs just to name a few. Talk to people within the traditional country music industry, and they’ll tell you that the contributions of Mark Capps were significant.
Some may have heard of Mark’s father Jimmy Capps, who played in the Grand Ole Opry house band for years, and also portrayed the guitar-playing sheriff on the RFD-TV music show Larry’s Country Diner. Affectionately known as “The Man in Back,” Jimmy Capps is recognized by quite a few in the country music community. But he’s not exactly a household name either, nor does Jimmy’s notoriety really communicate down to his son.
Engineers play a critically-important, but decidedly behind-the-scenes role in music. And despite Mark Capps owning four Grammy Awards, earning them in the polka realm really didn’t help put his name recognition in the national consciousness either, nor did it help his pocketbook for that matter. But the death of Mark Capps by a Nashville SWAT officer on Thursday, January 5th should nonetheless be of national importance, and the public should be demanding some answers, and if necessary, accountability.
First, the accusations of how the Nashville Metro SWAT team ended up at the front door of Mark Capps are most certainly disturbing, and don’t deserve to be diminished regardless of what the eventualy outcome was. It all began when the 54-year-old allegedly went on a tirade at his home on Summit Run Place in the Hermitage portion of Nashville around 3 am that Thursday morning, throwing things in the house and ultimately holding both his 60-year-old wife and 23-year-old stepdaughter at gunpoint, allegedly telling them that if they tried to call anyone or escape, he would kill them, and would kill the police if they were called. The two women also say Capps was drinking and taking prescription drugs at the time.
This was very unusual behavior for Mark Capps according to close friends and co-workers. Police had never been called to the house before for a domestic disturbance or anything else, and Mark Capps had no prior criminal record. As friends have pointed out since, Capps was currently not working at that time, and could have been worried about money. Perhaps more critically, Mark’s brother Jeffery Allen Capps had just passed away two days prior. A combination of things could had led to a mental health breakdown.
When Mark Capps eventually fell asleep around sunup while holding the two women captive, they escaped with their pets to the Hermitage police precinct where they explained to authorities what happened. After giving sworn depositions, four total warrants were issued for Mark Capps with two counts of aggravated assault and kidnapping respectively, and a request for a protection order was also processed.
Since the wife and stepdaughter claimed they had been held at gunpoint, had their lives threatened, and told officers that other guns were also present in the house, Nashville Metro police chose to deploy the SWAT team to serve the warrants and arrest Mark Capps. According to police spokesman Don Aaron in a press conference later in the day, due to concern that Capps may barricade himself in the home if he was confronted, they decided to conduct what they characterized as a “covert operation” approaching the house. This means that the police did not officially announce their presence in the area.
“As the SWAT members were on the front porch area of the home, [Mark Capps] actually came to the door, opened the door with gun in hand,” Don Aaron explains. “At that point during that altercation or confrontation with the SWAT members, he was fatally shot.”
Police also said that they believe Mark Capps may have been monitoring their movements through the house’s video surveillance system. On the day of the incident, police released body cam video (not embeddable), where a SWAT officer brandishing an AR-style rifle can be seen pointing it at the front door of the residence, and shouting through a storm door “Show me your hands!” before firing three or four shots.
SWAT officers then enter the residence and continue to shout “Show me your hands!” after Capps retreated into the house. The video also shows a picture of the pistol Capps was allegedly carrying tucked partially under a rug and what appears to be a parcel package under a table. As police have confirmed, the gun of Mark Capps was never fired.

As is common with many of these police-related shootings, when the news broke about the death of Mark Capps at the hands of police, people retreated to their respective ideological corners, with some putting paramount importance on the right of police officers to protect themselves. But the big question that many friends and family members of Mark Capps are asking is, “Did he have to die?”
The first set questions is:
1) Did the police try to contact Mark Capps via phone before sending SWAT to the neighborhood to determine his state of mind and if he would be aggressive with anyone approaching or entering the house to serve a warrant, or if he would be willing to turn himself in?
2) If no communication was possible, why did the police not attempt to set up a line of communication with the house, either by delivering a cell phone or setting up a land line, or even using a bull horn?
3) Did Nashville Metro involve mental health professionals or crisis negotiators? Did police reach out to a family member, a close friend, or someone else who perhaps could have spoken to Mark Capps to help de-escalate the situation?
4) Why was the SWAT team seen as the first option to apprehend an individual with no prior criminal record, and when there was only one individual to apprehend, and no active hostages involved?
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Then there is the concern of how SWAT officers ended up on the front porch of the house of Mark Capps. According to Don Aaron of Metro Nashville, when the officers approached the front door, they were conducting a “covert operation.” This means they had not announced their presence. This is confirmed via the body cam footage.
As Don Aaron said later in the critical incident briefing as part of the release of the body cam video, “As three SWAT members attempted to begin work outside the home without Capps seeing them, he (Capps) opened the door with pistol in hand.”
But watching the body camera footage, you can clearly see the three officers walk briskly and directly toward the front door of the home with rifles outstretched, and before Capps opens the front door, appear to be attempting to place an explosive or diversionary device on the front porch, or on the front door.
The idea that three fully armed and equipped SWAT officers all standing on the front porch of a suburban house in the broad daylight while installing an explosive device would be able to be there “without Capps seeing them” in the words of spokesman Don Aaron may have been the fatal miscalculation in how the situation was handled. Even without monitoring surveillance cameras on the house, most anyone would notice three armed men rushing up and standing on their front porch, especially if they were concerned that police may be coming.
The three officers standing on the front porch of Mark Capps did not announce themselves as police officers. They did not try to serve Capps the arrest warrants. They did not ask him to surrender. They did not tell him why they were there.
Once Mark Capps opened the door, another set of questions is posed about the officer’s actions.
1) Once Mark Capps made his presence known at the front door, why did the SWAT Officers not announce themselves as police?
2) Why did the SWAT officer give Mark Capps less than a second to obey the “Show me your hands!” command before opening fire?
3) Why did the SWAT officer fire three or four times instead of once or twice?
4) Did Mark Capps ever point or raise the gun toward the officers? In the body cam footage, it’s not visible if Capps even had the gun in his possession, though officers say he did. Spokesman Don Aaron says that Capps made “movements” that made the firing officer believe he was under “immediate, imminent threat,” but did not say Capps pointed the gun at him. What were those movements?
5) If Mark Capps was fatally shot while possessing the gun, how did the gun end up tucked under a rug and a package under a table, with no visible blood on either the gun or the surrounding items?
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When it comes to the arrest of individuals and the serving of warrants, Tennessee law states:
40-7-106. Notice of authority and grounds for arrest — Telephone call.
(a) When arresting a person, the officer SHALL inform the person of the officer’s authority AND the cause of the arrest, AND exhibit the warrant if the officer has one, EXCEPT when the person is in the ACTUAL COMMISSION of the offense OR is pursued immediately after an escape.
40-7-108. Resistance to officer.
(a) A law enforcement officer, after giving notice of the officer’s identity as an officer, may use or threaten to use force that is reasonably necessary to accomplish the arrest of an individual suspected of a criminal act who resists or flees from the arrest.
(b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), the officer may use DEADLY FORCE to effect an arrest ONLY IF ALL other reasonable means of apprehension have been exhausted OR are unavailable, AND where feasible, the officer has given notice of the officer’s identity as an officer AND given a warning that deadly force may be used unless resistance or flight ceases, AND:
(1) The officer has probable cause to believe the individual to be arrested has committed a felony involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious bodily injury; or
(2) The officer has probable cause to believe that the individual to be arrested poses a threat of serious bodily injury, either to the officer or to others unless immediately apprehended.
40-7-107. Authority of officer to break in.
To make an arrest, either WITH or without a warrant, the officer may break open any outer or inner door or window of a dwelling house if, AFTER notice of the officer’s office, authority and purpose, the officer is refused admittance.
Metro Nashville Police have not indicated that any phone call was placed to Mark Capps. Officers did not inform Mark Capps of their authority, or the cause for his arrest when they entered his porch, and he was not in the actual commission of the crime at the time. The officers never gave notice of their identity before using deadly force, did not give warning that deadly force may be used, and all other means of reasonable apprehension had not been exhausted at the time of the shooting.
Another issue is that we only have one side of the story, both with what initially happened in the home with the alleged kidnapping and threats to the wife and stepdaughter, along with what Mark Capps was seeing and sensing as the SWAT officers approached the front door. As cliché as it sounds, there are two sides to every story, and Mark Capps is not around to tell his. This is another reason why the preservation of life should have been an imperative in this situation. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and the allegations against Mark Capps were just that—allegations, which also happened to be entirely out of character for Mark according to friends.
This is not to say that there is any reason to believe that the allegations of the initial kidnapping and threats perpetrated by Mark Capps are false. But we can’t assume that they are true. And even if they were, nobody was harmed in the initial incident. Mark Capps would not be facing the death penalty if he was apprehended.
Some have taken to giving more colloquial explanations of how to absolve or explain what happened. A popular one has been, “Fu-k around and find out” in defense of the officers. But that’s not a law or a statute. If Mark Capps did have a gun in his hand when he opened the front door, that would most certainly be grounds for concern, and possibly, lethal action by the officers. But if the concern is for the safety of the officers, why were they on the front porch of the house of Mark Capps in the first place, especially without announcing their presence? Whoever made the decision to send the three SWAT officers to the front porch were putting those officers in harm’s way.
The three officers were not expecting to confront Mark Capps in that moment. When Capps opened the front door, it startled the officers, just as Capps was likely startled by three heavily armed men placing an explosive device on his front door. It is understandable that when Mark Capps suddenly opened the front door with a pistol in his hand (allegedly), that the officers may be startled, and fire on him. But the fatal flaw was that those officers were put in that position in the first place. Setting up a perimeter, opening a line of communication with Mark Capps in the house, and getting him to surrender peacefully would have been a much better option.
Another theory floated is that this was a classic case of suicide by cop, meaning that Mark Capps wanted to be killed. But then why did Mark Capps retreat back into the home when the officer opened fire? Why did the gun of Mark Capps end up in the manner that it did, almost like a feeble attempt to be hidden?
As with all officer-involved shootings in Nashville, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will handle the investigation henceforth. “In the coming days, the TBI, and the District Attorneys Office will continue to investigate and analyze this incident,” Metro Nashville’s Don Aaron said on the day of the shooting.
But unlike other officer involved shootings, the death of Mark Capps did not make the Nightly News. His ties to the country music community did not make the story any more remarkable for many in the public. Similar to the story of country artist and songwriter Randy Howard who was killed by bounty hunters in 2015 serving a bench warrant for a crime he was going to be exonerated of, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation was put in charge of the case, but no charges were ever filed, and no conclusions were ever made public.
In the case of Mark Capps, the consequences were too grave for it to be yet another case that gets swept under the rug. Mark Capps could very well have been in the wrong. But all the evidence must come forth, a thorough investigation must be done with the findings made public, and efforts undertaken to make sure individuals accused of crimes are allowed to face their charges and any penalties in a court of law as opposed to being needlessly gunned down in their home.
January 11, 2023 @ 9:49 am
I just want to say on a more personal level, I am not against the police, and I am for the right of police officers to defend themselves. If I was in the situation the firing SWAT officer was in and a suspect was standing in front of me with a gun in his hand, I may have fired too.
But having done a lot of detailed reading about this case, Tennessee law, the common practices in these types of scenarios, I just don’t understand why those three SWAT officers were sent to the front porch, and who thought they would be able to be there for enough time to place an explosive device without being detected. That was the fatal flaw, and it put those officers unnecessarily in harm’s way, just as it did Mark Capps. It was an aggressive move as opposed to a move toward de-escalation.
January 11, 2023 @ 10:29 am
Fantastic article as always
It sounds like the people who should be under scrutiny are the decision makers who chose the course of action on behalf of the responders who had to act on that plan
I don’t have an opinion on the matter, id rather wait and see what information reveals itself and base my opinion on that, rather than jump to an opinion early
Will it be decided that at some level a wrong decision was made? Maybe
January 11, 2023 @ 12:46 pm
If the victim was any other race but White, this would be an international news story. Thank you Kyle, for being the only public advocate for an investigation into this man’s murder by the state.
January 11, 2023 @ 12:50 pm
The person deserving of scrutiny is the police officer with an itchy trigger finger. Murder was committed, and a badge will hide that truth.
January 11, 2023 @ 4:40 pm
You can only imagine what a policeman has endured up untill this point, particularly a member of the SWAT team. If there finger is a little itchy it’d make sense to me. People need to behave themselves, not holding people at gun point and you would not have the itchy fingered SWAT team coming to your door.
January 11, 2023 @ 9:48 pm
As a bootlicker, do you prefer suede or patent leather?
January 11, 2023 @ 9:54 pm
Let’s please not descend into name calling here. This is a very serious situation.
January 12, 2023 @ 7:22 am
if you have an itchy trigger finger you should not have a gun, let alone be in a position to use it. this is called ‘responsibility’.
January 11, 2023 @ 2:10 pm
You have a suspect accused of holding family members hostage, heavily armed, drinking and possibly under the influence of prescription drugs that may have been antidepressants or painkillers. This was not going to end well no matter what happened.
January 11, 2023 @ 2:44 pm
Allegedly.
May 4, 2023 @ 10:18 pm
But the ones held hostage were NOT there no pressure! Cops should have followed their own rules !
They didn’t, instead killed him they should all 3 fired!!
January 11, 2023 @ 4:58 pm
While there’s a lot we don’t know or won’t know, I wonder what immediate threat to public safety existed that required a dynamic or deliberate entry. What is lost by waiting out Capps? He’s alone in the house and while he is armed (perhaps even heavily) he’s not yet discharged a weapon. They know he’s fallen asleep once already from drugs/alcohol/fatigue, and may well do so again. Set up a perimeter, try to establish communications and see where that goes.
Judges and juries (and the law itself) are hesitant to second-guess police, but a lay person can wonder what Capps did or said that moved him up on the threat matrix, making police believe their only option was to enter the home.
January 11, 2023 @ 5:00 pm
It’s just stupid. If his gf and daughter had still been in the house, then use of a swat team may have been ok but not here. Also having them sneak up and trying to blow the door with explosives is just a dangerous move by itself for all involved and not needed. So what if he had barricaded himself in. That happens a lot here where I live with armed people. No swat team is called and 99 percent of the time there’s never even a shot fired. Communication is the key and none was used here. I’m a big time police supporter but I don’t believe that they are above the rules. If police officers aren’t willing to do their job and need basically an army to do their job with one person, maybe they shouldn’t be in law enforcement. Just like that school shooting down in Texas. People more than likely died that may not have if officers had been willing to do their job.
January 11, 2023 @ 5:53 pm
I have no opinion. At this stage, all opinions are armchair quarterbacking.
January 12, 2023 @ 6:11 pm
It is possible that while he was trying to comprehend why there were three Navy SEALS on his front porch – one of which was pointing a “weapon of war” at his heart, the other of which was wiring his door to fucking explode – that he misunderstood the command “Show me your hands”. He may have heard it as “Show me your JAZZ HANDS” – a common, fatal mistake. Spokesman Aaron categorized the operation as “covert”, which is distantly different from, “clandestine”. By covert, he obviously was referring to the fact that three law enforcement officers were on Mr Capps property masquerading as military commandos, and they certainly said or did nothing to dissuade or disabuse him that notion.
March 1, 2023 @ 3:30 pm
Coat – you are absolutely correct. And my question is – why didn’t they say “Drop your weapon” instead of Show Me your Hands” if they saw a gun? And the story changed….first it was he made a “gesture”…..then it was that he opened the door with gun in hand….then it was that he opened the door and pointed the gun at the officer….which is true, if any of it? The “gesture” could have simply been him opening the door when those “covert” officers were not expecting it and it startled Coon…..we know the rest….. they didn’t give him the chance to obey their command “show me your hands” without firing on him. Not okay.
January 12, 2023 @ 7:09 pm
This all can (and maybe should) be dissected, but policemen are NEVER taught to stop shooting after once or twice. You stop when you feel the threat is over.
January 12, 2023 @ 7:46 pm
Not going to comment on anything but the medical.
Someone in the household was on ZTLido (topical lidocaine). Commonly prescribed as a topical, for external shingles.
Am curious to know if that same person was taking Gabapentin, and at what dose, at the same time.
Could be important.
January 16, 2023 @ 12:22 am
It isn’t. That’s a pain patch like SalonPas. And how do you make the leap to Gabapentin? What?????
January 16, 2023 @ 9:38 am
The use of ZTlido and Gabapentin could be very important, in this case.
Gabapentin has often been used as a first line treatment in reducing neuropathic pain due to post-herpetic neuralgia.
January 13, 2023 @ 3:00 am
Less than ONE SECOND after asking to see Mark’s hands, and he’s shot dead. This is per SWAT video! He OBVIOUSLY didn’t see Mark’s hands or he wouldn’t have asked to see them. In LESS THAN A SECOND, SWAT “saw a gun” and “determined they should shoot”. No deescalation used, I’m not sure what other super powers SWAT has but their eye sight and determining a threat in less than a second before using deadly force is amazing. SWAT was wrong! Someone should pay for this wrongful
deadly use of force.
January 13, 2023 @ 6:55 am
Very interesting article, Trigger, and not what I expected to read when I opened SCM this morning. I agree with everything you said her except one thing:
“Why did the SWAT officer fire three or four times instead of once or twice?”
When you make the decision to fire, you fire to eliminate the threat. If you’re Chris Kyle, that may be one shot, but the SEAL who eliminated bin Laden fired three shots.
January 13, 2023 @ 5:20 pm
I’m not saying that the officer should have not shot 3 or 4 times, I’m just saying a legitimate question for us to ask is was it necessary for him to shoot three or four times, or if once or twice would have incapacitated Mark Capps enough where he was no longer a threat.
Also, this is not a military combat situation. This is a situation where police were tasked to serve a warrant on a suspect who is presumed innocent.
January 17, 2023 @ 8:44 am
I 100% agree Nashville Metro likely skipped a few steps before they sent SWAT to Mark’s (or anyone’s) front door. That said, I respect you enough as a journalist to encourage you to re-evaluate the position that anyone, SWAT or a private citizen, can “shoot to wound” or “shoot to incapacitate”. In fact, private citizens are held to a higher standard than police officers are where we cannot un-holster a firearm unless we are in immediate fear of death or grievous bodily harm.
January 13, 2023 @ 7:54 am
Your article is another example of why you and SCM are highly respected in our home. Thought-out questions such as yours need to be asked (& re-asked unfortunately) as opposed to polarized pre-judgements. Hopefully we all can benefit and learn from this tragic ending of one’s life. How could it have been prevented should be the goal of all involved.
January 14, 2023 @ 9:45 am
Sad story, one bad day can ruin your life.
If you wait for the gun to be pointed at you…you are dead.
Rev Al was on the way to get to the bottom of it but Southwest must have cancelled his flight.
January 14, 2023 @ 3:15 pm
Always difficult for the Police in such situations. A tragedy for all concerned.
January 20, 2023 @ 7:38 pm
So very sad. All who are mourning Mark’s passing are in my and, Wife, Darlene’s thoughts and prayers.
Did anyone notice what appears to be a box or partial box of ZTl Lidocaine, pictured near the gun (on the right side?) The use of this medication can have possible side effects which may include: mental/mood changes (such as nervousness, confusion, drowsiness.) And, also other side effects as well. (If) alcohol was consumed along with this medication, this perhaps could intensify the side effect (s.)
We met Mark Capps while I was performing for a Minnesota based country gospel act, opening for the Issacs. Mark was very kind and humble. Knowing I was very intrigued with audio and mixing, Mark graciously gave me a tutorial of the front of house mixing board. I will never forget his kindness.
February 7, 2023 @ 1:17 pm
Please continue to report on the investigation.
February 14, 2023 @ 7:48 am
I have wrestled for hours about unanswered questions. I am relieved to have found this substantial mirror of my concerns. I pray the outcome will not be to have this tragedy swept under the rug. Thank you for asking these questions. My heart goes out to those who mourn his passing.
February 16, 2023 @ 1:23 am
Some new-to-me details have just been released by WTVF!
By: Araceli Crescencio
Posted at 10:03 PM, Feb 15, 2023
and last updated 12:01 AM, Feb 16, 2023
The headline reads: Nashville officer involved in Mark Capps’ death has a history of suspensions, use of force
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WTVF) — So far this year, there have been nine officer-involved shootings in Tennessee.Two of them took place right here in Nashville. The first one happened on Jan. 5, 2023, when Nashville SWAT officer, Ashley Kendall Coon, shot and killed Grammy award-winning engineer Mark Capps.
The aftermath of that interaction left Capp’s longtime friends and family members wondering if things would have been different if de-escalation tactics were used.
Capp’s death is still under investigation, but officer Coon’s personnel file, obtained by NewsChannel 5, shows a history of use of force and eight suspensions.
In one case in 2012, Coon was attempting to do a knock and talk with a neighbor. No one was answering the door, but eventually, a man came outside pointing a gun at officers. He was told to drop the weapon, and he did so. Officer Coon then grabbed the man and pulled him out of his home and handcuffed him. He then conducted a protective sweep inside the home without meeting the requirements for one
He was suspended for two days for demonstrating inefficiency, negligence, or incompetence in the performance of duties.
A spokesperson for Metro Police says Coon’s last suspension was in 2013, and all use of force reports were well documented and reviewed by supervisors.
Police said Capps held his wife and stepdaughter at gunpoint for several hours. But according to arrest affidavits, a third person, the stepdaughter’s boyfriend, was also in the home at the time. According to a Tennessee Bureau of Investigation spokesperson, the boyfriend was an off-duty TBI police officer. He left the home before the two women reported their concerns to police.
TBI says it notified District Attorney General Glenn Funk of this information when it surfaced, and he requested the TBI continue investigating the case.
So far, Metro Police has only released one angle of body camera footage. We’ve asked for more video, but they pointed us to the TBI.
A TBI spokesperson said under state law, the agency won’t release any other video until the investigation is complete.
https://www.newschannel5.com/news/nashville-officer-involved-in-mark-capps-death-has-a-history-of-suspensions-use-of-force
February 16, 2023 @ 2:08 pm
Going to have an update to this story soon. Working on tracking down and verifying all of the information.
February 17, 2023 @ 2:54 am
Thank you, Trigger! I can imagine the amount of time to corroborate and investigate can be unpredictable. I encourage you not to rush, and I anticipate your update. This information is important on so many levels and fronts.
February 18, 2023 @ 12:16 pm
https://www.newschannel5.com/news/nashville-officer-involved-in-mark-capps-death-has-a-history-of-suspensions-use-of-force
This was on the Nashville news, during the alleged “hostage situation” he was actually holding 3 people captive, the wife, stepdaughter, and her boyfriend…. Whom just so happened to be an off duty officer for the fuckin’ Tennessee Bureau of Investigation!!! He had never been mentioned one time in anything I’ve heard, and I live like right around the corner from where this happened. I always thought it was odd and being swept under the rug, kinda like that gun. Oh and what hostage that has a chance to escape, would take time to grab multiple pets??? I love my cats and would run into a burning building to try to save them!! However- if I had been held against my will at gun point, with my daughter (+1) , and had a chance to leave, my daughter and I would be out bc I wouldn’t want to risk waking the armed person who threatened our lives. Something doesn’t smell right to me!!
March 1, 2023 @ 3:39 pm
Lizzy B,
I agree with everything you said. So this boyfriend leaves the house at 6:30am to go to work, business as usual, while the wife and girlfriend are being held at gunpoint and threatened? I don’t buy it……So many questions….And how can the TBI be put in charge of investigating this incident when one of their own officers was involved? They should have recused themselves and brought in the Justice Department. It’s been two months and not a peep about how this investigation is going. We are not going to let this just quietly fade away. No way. We will keep pushing until we get answers.
March 1, 2023 @ 3:40 pm
Lizzy B,
I agree with everything you said. So this boyfriend leaves the house at 6:30am to go to work, business as usual, while the wife and girlfriend are being held at gunpoint and threatened? I don’t buy it……So many questions….And how can the TBI be put in charge of investigating this incident when one of their own officers was involved? They should have recused themselves and brought in the Justice Department. It’s been two months and not a peep about how this investigation is going. We are not going to let this just quietly fade away. No way. We will keep pushing until we get answers.