W.B. Walker’s “Old Soul” Podcast Receives Takedown Notice
The Ameripolitan Award-winning independent country podcast W.B. Walker’s Old Soul Radio Show is the latest music-based podcast to receive a takedown notice for using copyrighted audio files despite securing permission from the artists, and will be deleting all of its episodes and ceasing operations until a solution can be found.
Started in 2012 as a hobby of train conductor W.B. Walker, the 276-episode podcast is given credit for helping to launch the careers of important independent artists such as Tyler Childers and Colter Wall, and helping to support scores of others. W.B. appears on Colter Wall’s self-titled album from 2017.
In a 15-minute address to fans posted on Friday, October 9th, W.B. Walker explained that he received an email demanding he take his audio files down in a similar fashion to what happened to fellow podcaster Calvin Powers of the American Music Show in July. Powers was forced to cease his podcast after 452 episodes due to a similar issue.
Both podcasters gain permission to play music on their shows directly from the artists. However, audio bots scouring podcasts can detect a piece of copyrighted material, and begin the take down process automatically with little recourse for the podcasters.
“When I first started doing this show back in 2012, at the time podcasts—they were popular, don’t get me wrong—but it’s grown to be something that in my honest opinion I didn’t think they would get as big as they are,” W.B. Walker said in his address. “In all honesty, I’m surprised it didn’t happen earlier. It’s just something out of my hands.”
As Saving Country Music reported in July in an article “Music Is Being Left on the Sidelines of the Podcast Revolution,” this issue is affecting grassroots podcasters and internet DJs doing what they can to give back to the music by helping to spread the word, to the biggest podcasts and audio creators in the world. Joe Rogan’s The Joe Rogan Experience has millions of daily listeners and viewers, and recently signed a $100-million deal with Spotify. But Joe Rogan cannot play music on the podcast, or the episodes can be demonetized on YouTube, or pulled. The issue affects all sorts of audio and video creators on YouTube and podcast networks.
Along with shutting down podcasts like W.B. Walker’s Old Soul Radio Show and the American Music Show that help promote artists, the industry is leaving a revenue opportunity on the sidelines from not allowing podcasters to license the use of music on the format at reasonable rates.
Unfortunately there is not even a “10 second rule” that some podcasters work under, believing as long as they keep copyrighted audio to small snippets, they’re in the clear. It also often doesn’t matter if you have permission from the specific artist, or credit them somewhere for the song. If a bot instructed from a label or publisher finds any part of a song in an audio presentation, it has the possibility of raising a flag. And since the human element has been taken out of the review process even for larger content creators, there are few options to override decisions. The only way to be completely in the clear is with licensing contracts meant for commercial radio stations that are so expensive, they price out would-be podcasters.
“I don’t want to sound cocky, but I know my show has helped a lot of independent artists, because when I feature an artist, I don’t just play a song, I showcase them. I put them on a pedestal and say, ‘Hey, listen to this,'” W.B. Walker says. “It’s sad, because folks like me who worry more about the musician than myself, the way things are going, there’s not room for us in the music industry. I’ve never considered myself part of the music industry. I do what I do out of a labor of love, to help people, and to turn folks on to music.”
Walker is encouraging his listeners to download his shows while they can, and says he’s planning to take all of the shows down in a matter of days across all formats.
“This won’t be the last time I talk to you, I promise you that,” he says. “I’ll figure something out if I can … I’m not going to give up. But until I know what I did wrong, it’s better to be safe than sorry … Just know I love everyone of you and I appreciate you. This show has meant a lot to me.”
October 10, 2020 @ 8:50 am
Pretty ironic, since Colter Wall’s debut album has a little snippet of that podcast as a track on his first full-length album.
October 10, 2020 @ 9:25 am
How do artists get paid if podcasts use songs without paying royalties.
Radio stations have to pay royalties?
I understand it can be expensive, if you are a small one man business, but some of these podcasts can get advertising to cover costs?
October 10, 2020 @ 11:17 am
In these podcasts, also Bill Frater’s wonderful Freight Train Boogie Podcast, not so well-known artists are being promoted for free, with their permission. The industry is shooting itself in the foot here. I will miss this great way of discovering new music, some of which I end up buying.
October 10, 2020 @ 2:03 pm
There are no compulsory licenses like what radio stations use for on-demand song plays like a podcast. Even if a podcaster has $10 million dollars to spend of a license, they still could not play songs legally because no such license exists. You cannot play music on a podcast. It’s a completely blind and ridiculous hole in the market.
October 11, 2020 @ 1:26 am
Didn’t know that, thought it was just about using songs without paying anything.
October 11, 2020 @ 9:38 am
I am finding information that conflicts with this. From what I have read it requires a “sync” license like you would use for movies or tv shows (and can be expensive and difficult to obtain) as well as more standard permissions and licensing. Joe Rogan can do anything he wants, he just doesn’t want to spend any of his millions and millions of dollars to play music. And why would you if you could get guests for free?
October 11, 2020 @ 11:22 am
thta’s my impression too. There are basically a few different licenses, one for radio (whch Trigger is talking about) which I think is also what Pandora uses (which is why there’s no back button) and other licenses for performance and the sync license.
Here’s a video that goes into a bunch of the licencing options, geared towards artists who are looking at getting their work copyrighted and registered with performing rights organizations (ie BMI/ASCAP):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0w9VjDgsQ0&feature=youtu.be
October 11, 2020 @ 12:11 pm
If you’ve ever watched or listened to a Joe Rogan podcast, it’s a completely off-the-cuff discussion that happens in real time. If he wanted to play a song from, let’s say, Sturgill Simpson, who has been on his podcast three times, sure, he could reach out to Sturgill Simpson’s publishing company, begin a negotiation for the rights to play a song, and in thee to six months, gain all the proper rights to do so, which would be positively irrelevant. That’s not a viable system for playing songs on podcasts, and it’s not that Joe Rogan or anyone else is too cheap to go through with it. It’s that it’s not worth it.
Whenever a radio station plays a song, they don’t have to gain permission for each specific song each specific time it is played. They pay for a license that allows them to play any song whenever they want. Allow podcasters to do the same. Problem solved.
October 13, 2020 @ 1:46 pm
Hypothetically speaking, if a (college?) radio station were to air a podcast as a show and then host it on their internet streaming site, would that cover the podcaster’s use of song snippets under the license/royalties that the station already purchased? I know that makes it a radio show and not a podcast, but from a rights standpoint, would this work?
I know sometimes college radio stations are strict about what the source of the music is, to prevent piracy and for quality audio issues, but would this be a workaround?
how do podcasts that are also radio shows handle getting onto podcasting platforms? For instance Radiolab is producted by an actual radio station but the same episodes are available on Spotify, Stitcher, iTunes, etc. Does whatever happens at the radio station level then also cover “rebroadcasts” via streaming podcast platforms?
October 10, 2020 @ 9:03 am
As one of the foremost proponents of copyright infringement, I’m not happy about this. I’m sorry Walker is having to put up with this. Also, I wonder how much of this this is Walker being targeted because his show is a country music podcast, and if it’s apart of the larger War On Country Music we’re experiencing currently?
Also, I’d like to apologise to you, Trigg, for hard cussing you that time. I was out of line. And, Fuzzy, I’d you’re out there, I’d like to apologise clear back to the first time I picked on you. I was out of line then too. And to Marky Mark, I apologise for hard cussing you that time in defense of Fuzzy when you have him a hard time about Maddy and Tae.
October 10, 2020 @ 9:50 am
This is also the last week for Bill Frater’s excellent Freight Train Boogie podcast, which is similarly being discontinued due to his receipt of at least one copyright infringement cease and desist letter. Frater has also always received permission from artists before including their music on his show. It’s a shame— over the years I’ve discovered a lot of terrific new music through his podcast.
October 10, 2020 @ 2:05 pm
Sorry to hear that. Bill Frater’s is another great podcast.
October 10, 2020 @ 10:46 am
Ok,
I need to be educated on this topic.
Could he cease & desist playing only the song(s), that have a copyright infringement?
And, continue playing all other songs that he has been given permission to play?
October 11, 2020 @ 3:14 pm
Possibly but if we are hearing about it means it is WELL past the bot recognized a song stage. We do not have the whole picture and I think much stronger words were sent on down to make it clear it’s just not even worth to try and fight.
October 12, 2020 @ 7:40 pm
I think what they’re saying is that it’s not possible to license ANY song. This is all news to me.
October 10, 2020 @ 10:48 am
This has been happening for years, I have a short film with music from an indie industrial band we have permission to use, with a written contract, that we can’t put up in YouTube because there is no online mechanism to say, no, we have the rights to this, here is proof. It sucks.
October 10, 2020 @ 12:01 pm
Sickening.
That’s really all you can say about it. This is how some in house counsel justify their bloated salaries, I suppose.
Zero consideration to the collateral damages of their actions, impacting what would otherwise result in free marketing for their product. Incredibly short sighted and idiotic.
October 10, 2020 @ 12:46 pm
This system is so so so broken. besides things like this podcast, that also drastically affects lots of music teachers on YouTube, and it has been a huge controversy for a while when similar things have happened to long-running YouTube music teaching channels. Rock/jazz YouTube music theory dude Rick Beato, who has millions of views on his music education channel, has been fighting the system for years and he’s only recently gotten white listed for some of his disputed fair use videos, probably only because of the size of his outraged audience and industry connections.
Also!! Even worse:
Dale Watson said during one of his recent livestreams that he has fought the automated flagging system unsuccessfully over THE RIGHT TO PLAY HIS OWN DAMN SONGS live in his livestream from his own venue on youtube (I don’t remember which date this was, but in the last couple of weeks he mentioned it at the Hernando’s Hideaway TV livestream, and I think it was YouTube and not Facebook- he live streams on both). He owns the rights to the songs in question (I think he mentioned that I Lie When I Drink was one of the disputed songs).
You may get more of the story if you talk to him directly,
Trigger. This isn’t even about fair use and derivative works and all of that, this is the freaking actual artist
and the actual rightsholder himself being affected by this stupid system.
October 10, 2020 @ 2:04 pm
sorry I typed kinda-gobbledygook, was angry and on my phone and Something Was Wrong on The internet…
October 11, 2020 @ 9:22 am
Not gobbledygook at all. Very interesting.
October 10, 2020 @ 6:29 pm
My brother had a YouTube channel where he gave slide guitar lessons. He never did complete songs, unless it was something he made up. He was constantly getting copyright violation notices for videos like “Blues in E,” etc. It’s complete bullshit. And it’s not the labels that are behind it, it’s big tech. They want to be the only ones making money, and they want to control all content, across the board.
October 10, 2020 @ 12:51 pm
Well hell, this suck. I’ve always thought of Walker’s show as an audio version of SCM. I’ve used it for discovery of new music for years. It’s a shame that it’s going away. Not sure how the fractions of a penny that artists get from licensed spotify or amazon plays is worth the loss of exposure to new fans. The musicians are the ones losing out here, I know it’s not their fault, but still.
Hopefully Walker will come up with a new format. Depending of his revenue stream and how successfully he can monetize it, perhaps a live performance format similar to tiny desk/npr or Ketch Secor’s “Hartland Hootenany”, with interviews. That might be better actually.
October 10, 2020 @ 2:20 pm
Ok,
So why doesn’t someone start a video/audio site, where as long as you have independent artist’s written, or recorded audio permission, you can play whatever you want?
Why would that be so tough?
October 10, 2020 @ 11:10 pm
About 10 years, people like myself got called the tinfoil hat brigade because we tried to keep everything more open source. (Remember Ello? No, neither does anyone else)
But YouTube is so easy and everyone migrated there and now they invested so much that Google can put the screws on and people stay there.
So there is no difficulty setting up your own website that hosts whatever you want, BUT the difficulty is keeping an audience of people who only do what is easy.
Somehow Trigger has managed to do it independently, but he is something special.
I miss forums where you could be a different person with each circle of friends, and personal moderators and a much better vibe
October 11, 2020 @ 12:30 am
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Really trying to make sense of what seems like terrible greed.
October 11, 2020 @ 12:46 am
Like the story of Cyanide and Happiness cartoon. They helped youtube by being one of the original funny video producers, then Google decided to call them obscene and stopped paying them for ad revenue. Google still showed the videos and ads but no money to the makers.
For the children, of course.
Likewise so many musicians don’t release their music on independent platforms. One day Spotify might turn evil, but it will be too late, they will have all our music collections.
Many “woke” artist haven’t made their music available from independent suppliers and i find it incredibly hypocritical.
So this is what happens with ‘free’ services
October 11, 2020 @ 9:27 am
Seems like someone should go after Google.
I get tired of their normal horse*hit, as well
October 10, 2020 @ 2:37 pm
Could W.B. still play music from local/independent/unsigned artists with their permission?
Could he still do his live shows?
If an artist gets signed at a later time (like Tyler Childers did), could those past episodes be subject to copyright claims?
I’m puzzled as to why he needs to remove EVERY episode. Like episodes with Ian Noe and his manager Mary Sparr. Obviously stuff like that is all above board and nobody would be threatening legal action there
October 10, 2020 @ 4:07 pm
As trigger said: Bots = Artificial Intelligence boys and girls- I m so glad I’m 72.
If not the AI, it’s pseudo intellectuals pretending their knowledge(?) is an esoteric venture- when it couldn’t get past the first grade on merit-
October 10, 2020 @ 6:31 pm
My best friend is 81. She keeps saying, “I’m glad I’m at the end of my life” She thinks the world is upside down. And she’s right.
October 10, 2020 @ 5:44 pm
I represent an artist who has considered starting a podcast that would include a clip from original song as the intro. We have held off on doing this because their songs are copyrighted and have been released. They have had some Facebook videos removed for using their own songs.
October 10, 2020 @ 7:37 pm
Yes, I just posted the last Freight Train boogie podcast! I’m very sorry to hear about WB’s Old Show ending. The thing is, they’ve never made it financially feasible for there to have music podcasts. I have always been supported by the artists who are more than happy to get any airplay. I’m not trying to rip anyone off, just spread the word. I do have an internet station, Americana Boogie Radio, and I pay for licensing for that and hosting and all that. It ends up costing me about $200 a month. I enjoy doing it but after 10 years will miss the FTB podcasts. Thanks!
October 11, 2020 @ 7:41 am
Hey Bill,
Sorry to hear this happened to you as well. Seems like just a matter of “when” not “if” they’ll come after you if you have the audacity to play music on a music podcast, even s small portion of it. However I’m hoping all of these stories lead to enough uproar that the right people start addressing the issue.
October 11, 2020 @ 4:41 am
He’s done more for country and folk than almost anyone I can think of in the last decade.
FUCK THIS, FUCK ALL OF IT, IM FUCKING DONE.
October 11, 2020 @ 6:40 am
Done with what?
October 11, 2020 @ 6:54 am
Bullshit. Pussies. Whiners.
All of them.
October 11, 2020 @ 6:32 am
How have I never heard of this guy or podcast? I tried a few podcasts in the past, but always got frustrated by the sound quality.
October 11, 2020 @ 9:19 am
This bums me out because the only kind of podcasts I want to listen to are music podcasts. I am super into politics but I have no desire to sit and listen to podpundits give their opinions. I watch and read actual news and form my own opinions and then like to hear or read analysis from people with expertise in particular subjects. I am also over the true-crime fascination.
Music is the one area that I’m always looking for new information about, looking to hear new things and learn more about artists. And though there are objective measures of good vs bad music – it’s mostly a subjective experience. So, opinion is appropriate and if you can find people with similar opinions, it a great thing (unlike with politics which should be fact based.).
Surely there’s an entertainment lawyer out there who could defend artists who want their music on podcasts like Old Soul without giving up copytight protections entirely.
October 11, 2020 @ 12:41 pm
Trigger, maybe you’ve done it and I missed it, but how about an article with recommendations for streamable country shows on the radio? Looks like Bill Frater might have one?
October 11, 2020 @ 10:48 pm
I did do something similar to this many moon’s ago, and it’s now well out-of-date. Might do another one in the future. My fear of doing lists like that is you invariably leave someone out because despite appearing omniscient, I’m actually not, and then people get offended when they’re left out.
October 12, 2020 @ 6:38 pm
I’d like to second that request. Ameripolitan recognizes DJ’s, maybe doing some occasional short posts about their work would get around the concern about leaving someone out?
October 11, 2020 @ 2:20 pm
Hi everyone,
WB just posted a youtube video talking about his future plans. Here’s the link but I am sure Trigger will update this post with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMN5mOT7NTM
October 11, 2020 @ 10:45 pm
Might have a lot more on this topic in the coming days and weeks.
October 12, 2020 @ 12:08 pm
would you be willing to talk to Dale about what is going on with copyright claims on some of his livestreams? It sounds like a really interesting (and really screwed up) story,
October 12, 2020 @ 12:29 pm
There are a lot of artists receiving take down notices for using their own music. Might do a story on this soon. Am willing to talk with anyone about their experience.
October 11, 2020 @ 3:10 pm
It still feels to me like the big music heads are bitter pissed about music going digital, especially the whole Napster thing they screwed up on. So they are digging in their heels at any new medium or voice that comes along simply just because the have the legal means to do so and because they are mad they can no longer make the same millions they made in 1999.
I personally hope the big label industry croaks. Yeah it will affect LOADS of people but the more I read about it (the history) from various books the more I loathe it.
October 11, 2020 @ 3:20 pm
Now I am curious, I stream on Mixcloud, that’s where I do my radio shows both live and the prerecorded shows.
Mixcloud supposedly has a science that covers all the music I play, it is not radio nor really a podcast. Just a platform others use (similar to twitch) but more audio focused than video & audio. Side note: Twitch is owned by Bezos so I don’t know why that trillionaire doesn’t just broker a one time deal only for his own platform? Or maybe he is just so big they leave him alone.
Anyway… I would think with the way I run my show on Mixcloud, that “Old Soul” would be able to do it on Mixcloud. I talk play songs and have guests on.
But I also think Mixcloud is not quite big enough for the majors to care yet. Give it a few and they will crack down on that too. If they can’t make all the money nobody can it seems.
October 12, 2020 @ 7:44 am
I feel like Mixcloud acts more like internet radio- if I remember right you can’t rewind to a previous track (unlike Spotify which looks more like an MP3 player where you can do whatever you want to the tracks) so it’s more like streaming for your local radio station. I’m guessing they’re using a radio license, but I’m not sure.
BTW there are several good country shows on MixCloud – HonkyTonk Jukebox plays old and sometimes rare classic singles, some of them from little-known Texas honkytonk bands that weren’t well known outside of Ft Worth/Dallas, and Rogue Radio from the UK plays classic country artists and lots of Ameripolitan artists from today.
October 12, 2020 @ 8:26 pm
Yeah maybe it operate like internet radio. I think it falls in a gray area but I do think this head honcho at the majors will crack down if people start making any serious money.
And thanks for the country show recommendation!! They are hard to find as it is mostly EDM and dance music it seems. Been thinking about starting my own country music stream but I’d really rather do it with a partner so we can play off each other.
October 12, 2020 @ 3:48 am
Copyright is a weird concept that often makes less than more sense. Especially in cases like this. It seems like the further technology envolve and the smarter ai gets, everything becomesdumber and more obfuscated.
October 12, 2020 @ 7:22 am
Speaking of podcasts, Conan has Willie Nelson in his new episode. A pretty great one.
October 12, 2020 @ 12:07 pm
This doesn’t explain the specific issues facing podcasters, but here’s a basic writeup from the Electronic Fronteir Foundation on fair use, and here’s another writeup about Youtube’s takedown processs specifically. i’m not sure what that process looks like for Apple Music or Spotify but I’m guessing there’s something similar for copyright claims for each platform:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/07/what-really-does-and-doesnt-work-fair-use-dmca
https://www.eff.org/issues/intellectual-property/guide-to-youtube-removals
October 12, 2020 @ 12:22 pm
Here’s a really good writeup of the issues facing podcasters and why the licenses and royalty payments are not the same as those for radio:
https://schoolofpodcasting.com/fair-use/
October 13, 2020 @ 8:51 am
Yeah maybe it operate like internet radio. I think it falls in a gray area but I do think this head honcho at the majors will crack down if people start making any serious money.
And thanks for the country show recommendation!! They are hard to find as it is mostly EDM and dance music it seems. Been thinking about starting my own country music stream but I’d really rather do it with a partner so we can play off each other.
October 13, 2020 @ 1:49 pm
So on Reddit today, the Rogue Radio folks were circulating a petition to get MixCloud to set up a separate country category, which they don’t currently have:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ameripolitan/comments/jakfq6/rogue_country_have_started_a_petition_to_get/
October 13, 2020 @ 9:42 pm
I listen to a lot of different kinds of music – and one of the most unusual shows I’ve found is a DJ collective called Chances With Wolves.
Their musical choices may not be entirely to everyone’s tastes – they play some obscure shit, to put it mildly – but the fact that they are able to put out a 2-3hr show of them playing records almost on a weekly basis via SoundCloud suggests that this might be a platform to explore.
It’s a widely-known, well-established, platform (albeit known chiefly as a springboard for the kind of Xanax-addled mumble rappers that have ruined everything I loved about hip hop growing up), so it’s a pretty stable place to host the shows, and the evidence tells us that playing copyrighted music is clearly not a problem.
No idea what it costs to set up an account and/or host shows there but, if a loose-knit collective of stoned hipsters from Brooklyn (no offense, CWW) can do it…
October 14, 2020 @ 11:23 am
New update from W.B. today, sounds like good news for the future of the show.
October 14, 2020 @ 12:00 pm
Working on a bigger update delving more into this issue. But yes, it looks like he’s found a solution. For now.
December 10, 2020 @ 5:16 am
I’m happy to announce that the Americana Music Show is back, for the third time, now in living color, and (hopefully) legal as Sunday!
https://americanamusicshow.com/calvin-relaunches-the-americana-music-show/
December 10, 2020 @ 9:11 am
Awesome Calvin, glad to see you back on!