Big Takeaways from Sturgill Simpson’s Appearance on the WTF Podcast
Sturgill Simpson sat down with Marc Maron of the WTF podcast recently, and the hour or so interview was released on Thursday (5-12). If you’re a diehard Sturgill Simpson fan, it would be strongly encouraged that you listen. Below are some of the more interesting tidbits from the conversation.
Listen to Sturgill Simpson on the WTF Podcast
On producer Dave Cobb:
“Dave [Cobb] knows how to stay out of the way, but looking back on it, he knows how to … The first record we did was us trying to get to know each other. And I can be pretty volatile in the studio if I’m set on something. And then I realized some days, he was actually manipulating me to get me angry to get a certain emotion or energy out of it. He’s fucking P.T. Barnum man.”
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On Kris Kristofferson:
“We played Willie’s Picnic last July in Texas, and I’ll never ever forget this as long as I’ll live. In the middle of our set, I look over and at the side of the stage behind one of the side monitors, Kris Kristofferson is back there literally with his hands in the air just bootin’ down. I was like ‘What is happening?’ And we come off the stage and we’re in the dressing room, and he walks in and literally, I’m not shitting you, the guy had a tear in his eye. It was all I could do to not choke up like a little bitch in front of the coolest guy in history. Things like that, I’m just glad all of this is happening at 36 or 37.”
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On Jason Isbell:
“[Jason Isbell] is a hero for me. He’s just a good human being. He doesn’t believe me … but I’ve never actually heard ‘Southeastern’ in its entirety. And I haven’t heard the new one at all. I remember Dave [Cobb] and I finished ‘High Top [Mountain], and Dave said, ‘Do you want to hear some of it?’ and I said ‘Absolutely.’ I think we got about four songs in and i said, ‘Man you got to turn it off, I can’t listen to this. It’s too good. It’s too stylistically-realized. If I get into something like this now at a point in my life, everything I write for six months is going to sound like that.”
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On Modern Country:
“It needs to be made fun of. And I don’t mean ‘it’ as in the mainstream, it all needs to be made fun of. People get so hung up on ‘This ain’t real country’ or ‘This is real country’ And it’s like fuck, who cares man? If it’s making you happy or it’s making someone you think’s a dipshit happy, at the end of the day it’s putting a lot of food on a lot of tables, it’s making a lot of jobs, and nobody’s forcing people to go buy this. Obviously there’s a huge demographic of people that love all the stuff that people make fun of. A lot of journalists last year wanted me to get sucked into that conversation and just talk shit and bash it all day long. I don’t have anything to offer there. I don’t even think about it.
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On Chris Stapleton, and the Changing of the Industry:
“People were fed up with what they saw as a lack of recognition for authentic country, but I knew [I] wouldn’t change anything. I got the ‘Savior of Country Music’ title and knew they would be let down. The industry propagates things it stands to benefit from and I knew the change had to come from the inside. A guy like me or Jason [Isbell], we can kick down doors all day but we’re not going to be the ones to walk through them. He’s too nice of a guy to say this so I’ll say it for him. [Jason Isbell] had a #1 country record last year. And I know they submitted it for recognition with the ACM’s and got rejected. So to me, I’m a little skeptical still. I don’t know how much things have really moved forward.
Chris Stapleton is a friend of mine. That guy is a phenomenal talent … because he’s in the inside, he’s in a better position to orchestrate change more so than anybody like Jason or myself or a lot of others could, and I think that’s a great thing. ‘Cause it has to move forward.
[The industry] is welcoming in new ones like Chris Stapleton. But both fortunately and unfortunately I think in the next few years you’re going to see Music Row pumping out versions 1 through 37 of their authentic country singers because they know right now they kind of look like assholes.
Any kind of modern music seems to be rapid, and over top of these bombastic, like a cheesy version of 80’s hair metal, and really shallow, empty lyrical content … Somewhere right now around $8,000 oak tables, meetings are taking place and they’re saying, ‘We look like assholes, and we need to come up with a better alternative.’ Because people are fed up. A lot of people from that world reached out to me. Keith Urban wrote me one of the nicest notes of encouragement I will probably ever get in my entire life. Zac Brown took us out and put us in front of bigger audiences than we ever thought we’d play for last year. So yeah, the artists are fed up. And the people that work in the industry are fed up.
May 12, 2016 @ 7:02 pm
He’s a really insightful guy… He may not be a great orator, or even able to express what he perceives, but he’s in tune to.a lot of goings on.
“And I can be pretty volatile in the studio if I’m set on something. And then I realized some days, he was actually manipulating me to get me angry to get a certain emotion or energy out of it.”
As much of an admirable opinion he has on bashing other music… and believe me, he’s right, and I like what he says… But I think, for the safety of our art form, that somebody needs to get real aggressive and real angry and start making scenes, to really draw attention to the issues of trying to commercialize an American art form, and what it’s all about…
But Sturgill’s right, it’s going to go away naturally because people are fed up. And kudos to him for not getting sucked into the culture wars and instead just forging his own path and letting Country Music turn itself around naturally.
Although the person doing most of the shaking-up of the industry is Stapleton…
Man, how cool would it be to have a double album Simpson sings Isbell, Isbell sings Simpson… Can you imagine that??
I get the impression that Simpson doesn’t feel happy or sad, he feels HAPPY or SAD. like his emotions run bigger and deeper than ours… I know I’ve been kind of disparaging towards producers, since they are known to meddle with someone else’s creativity, but Dave Cobb understands something that few other producers ever did… That’s why he tries to get Sturgill steamed up in the studio… He knows what the real Sturgill can sound like, and he’s trying to bring it out. He’s not just trying to make the music marketable.
“If I get into something like this now at a point in my life, everything I write for six months is going to sound like that.”
not sure that that’s a bad thing… We could use a few more people writing music like that… Of course if Sturgill does it then we lose Sturgill
May 16, 2016 @ 11:15 am
You know Fuzzy, I honestly do NOT understand all of this newfangled “Sturgill is such an AUTEUR” talk that’s been flying around post-Sailor’s Guide. Is that the only way that true country fans have found to compartmentalize their feelings over this guy moving away from what he started out as? Zac Brown and his ilk are sellouts, but Sturgill is an Arteest™. I’ve heard his albums, and they ain’t no Red Headed Stranger, Mama Tried, Will the Circle Be Unbroken, Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs 11 Months and 29 Days, American Recordings or Killin’ Time. Hell, they’re not even Ropin’ the Wind or Traveller for that matter.
May 17, 2016 @ 7:15 am
Amen! Well put!
May 17, 2016 @ 11:31 am
Thanks. Glad to see I’m not the only one around here that feels this way (even if we’re still the extreme minority) 🙂
May 17, 2016 @ 9:24 am
You’re not going to call Sturgill the Nirvana of independent country music, are you. 😉
Seriously, though… I think there have been some people who are more hard country fans and not really much for rock/soul/r&b that are disappointed with this album. Then there are others who have been very showy about how they love the new direction and that “if you don’t get it, you don’t get it.” Me, I like it a lot but I’m not bowled over by it,necessarily. It might be my least favorite so far, but as I think I said on another article, Led Zeppelin III is my least favorite of their first three, but I think’s a special album. Same with Sturgill’s latest. I think the album is an artistic statement. He made the album that he wanted to make and the direction that he went in is not an obvious commercial one. As far as Zac Brown goes, I don’t have much of any opinion on him except for Beautiful Drug. That is a trend chasing song that has no business being marketed as country. So yeah, that was a sellout moment.
I’m not familiar with all the albums you list. Maybe half. For example, my exposure to Merle’s classic stuff is mainly through a box set. But I will take MMSICM over Traveller any day. Probably High Top Mountain, too. But you know, that’s like my opinion, man. I think Traveller is a very good album, though.
May 17, 2016 @ 12:07 pm
Ha! No sir, my intention was not to compare him to Nirvana (despite his cover of “In Bloom”). Perhaps I’m just dumber or more honest than the average music fan: if I don’t understand the appeal of a given artist or work, I’ll blatantly ask about it (and by “appeal”, I mean the level of notoriety they achieve OR simply that anyone likes them at all, though I don’t think I’ve really had reason to employ the latter concept around here very much). My opinions of Nirvana and Lynyrd Skynyrd aside, I admit that I’m right on the edge of splitting hairs with my comparison of Sturgill and Zac (if I haven’t already teetered off). But I don’t think that Sturgill’s lack of presence on the radio means that he’s chasing popularity any less than Zac. I don’t know either of them personally, I’m just irritated by all of this “these guys are sellouts and I hate them, but this guy I like and he’s just following his muse” talk. At the risk of being redundant (assuming you’ve read any of my other comments on this topic), let we reiterate that I don’t believe in general “objective” quality when it comes to art. What someone likes and dislikes is determined more by who they are than how “good” something is, I don’t care who disagrees. I can be a little smug about rap but deep down I don’t think it’s “bad” music, I just don’t like it (nor its ostensibly violent culture, but that’s another issue entirely).
As for the albums I’ve listed, I believe that most (if not all) are listed on Trigger’s “Greatest Country Albums of All Time” list from a few years ago: https://savingcountrymusic.com/saving-country-musics-greatest-albums-of-all-time/. More to the point, however, is that they’re all classics and very much a part of the fiber of country music as we know it to be. Some of them are obvious, but just in case you’re unfamiliar with the rest I’ll offer a concise listing:
Red Headed Stranger – Willie Nelson
Mama Tried – Merle Haggard
Will the Circle Be Unbroken – The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band & Friends
Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs – Marty Robbins
11 Months and 29 Days – Johnny Paycheck
American Recordings – Johnny Cash (I included the general name of the series but my favorite is the second installment, Unchained)
Killin’ Time – Clint Black
Ropin’ the Wind – Garth Brooks (yeah, yeah, it’s Garth, but it’s pretty much a classic at this point)
As for Traveller, it didn’t really speak to me when I listened to it the first few times. It’s a relatively subtle album and took a few sessions to grow on me. Now I can’t seem to put it down to save my life. I’ve listened to Sturgill’s first two albums several times over the years in an attempt to tap in to what everyone is raving about. Ironically, I don’t think he sounds a whole lot like Waylon when he sings, I hear more Waylon in the way he plays and arranges his songs. But that’s just me. He’s one of those guys, also like Skynyrd and a BIT like Nirvana (for me, anyway) that I like but do not love, and certainly don’t cut extra slack for just because I think he’s above the mainstream artists doing what amounts to the same thing.
I even wrote a little jingle about Sturgill that I posted on another article in response to someone being a bit snide in his favor. Make of it what you will:
I got my foot in the door now
Don’t care too much for this crowd
Think I’ll sing like Waylon and use steel
Broaden my country music appeal
Cover old pop and rock songs
I’ll have a fanbase, won’t be long
Then when they’re not looking, jump ship
Tell them I’ll make more country if they lose their shit
(Obviously, the “sing like Waylon” comment isn’t QUITE how I feel, but lots of folks do feel that way and it fit in nicely.)
May 17, 2016 @ 12:46 pm
Oh, OK. I admit that I’m a bit of a cynic who sometimes thinks that people might be asking rhetorical questions. 🙂
Of those albums, I have Red Headed Stranger, Will the Circle Be Unbroken and all of the American Recordings albums + the Unearthed box set. I know of the Marty and Merle albums, but admittedly, couldn’t have named the artist associated with the others, including Johnny Paycheck. There are definitely some holes in my country music knowledge. Less so rock, but that’s the music I grew up on.
Unchained is my favorite American Recordings album as well. I think the first three are all very good, the fourth uneven but with some great stuff, and the last two were fairly solid.
MMSICM and Traveller could be seen as classics someday. I was a bit surprised how MMSICM caught on so big in the Americana world, winning AMA album of the year and the runaway winner of the No Depression reader’s poll (a big deal to me, buy maybe not others). Time will tell, I guess
May 17, 2016 @ 1:19 pm
It’s not that there aren’t gaps in my country music knowledge as well, I just made sure to seek many of these out when I began to gain a genuine appreciation of the genre as an art-form several years ago. Do yourself a favor and get Gunfighter Ballads, that album is killer. Marty Robbins is one of country music’s greatest vocalists, bar none. George Jones had the range and emotion, but Marty had the all-around perfect tone. Speaking of Jones, Johnny Paycheck is often credited as developing the signature singing style that the Possum would eventually immortalize (Paycheck played in his band for a while and was a great singer as well). There’s a YouTube user that goes by the name “Real Country Music Albums” that posts a lot of good, often rare, stuff on his channel. Most of Paycheck’s albums are out of print, and this guy converts the vinyl to digital and posts them on the site for everyone to hear. 11 Months actually got a CD release, and he posted that version as well.
11 Months and 29 Days – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hepFDoMp-Hs
Take This Job and Shove It – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbIOPhedmJg (assuming you’re unfamiliar with Paycheck’s biggest hit)
Mama Tried – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER3l5S9-Enk
Pretty sure you’re right about Metamodern and Traveller being looked back on as classics. As has been noted, new classics are hard to come by, but these records have been so big in terms of commercial and critical appeal that I see no reason why they WOULDN’T be, unlike someone like Garth who was huge in his day but has his fair share of detractors.
May 12, 2016 @ 7:26 pm
There’s an enormous amount of tension between his answers on Modern Country and Chris Stapleton. If modern country is ok and who cares what real country is, then why do “they look like assholes.” Seems like he does think about it and does have things to offer.
May 12, 2016 @ 9:24 pm
I agree there is a little contradiction in his answers, and we’ve come to expect that from Sturgill. But at the same time, I don’t blame him for not flamethrowing Sam Hunt or whatever the chest-thumping people who just love to hate on anything successful to make themselves feel better about their puny lives want. The job of Sturgill Simpson is to make music, not trash someone else’s. And it’s not like Sturgill has been around for 50 years like Merle Haggard had been, and can call out today’s posers with authority. Leave the dirty work to assholes like me. I don’t blame Sturgill at all for taking the high road, while also pointing out the obvious decline of ALL modern music.
May 12, 2016 @ 11:11 pm
I agree with the decline of all modern music the paralells between country and hip-hop are astounding.
Also this speaks to why Adele can sell millions in an era where physical media is supposedly dead.
May 13, 2016 @ 6:09 am
It’s an interesting interview. Perhaps there’s some aspect of “Don’t hate the player; hate the game” with decision makers (focus groups,corporate interests etc) being the ones taken to task rather than the footsoldiers ?
May 12, 2016 @ 7:55 pm
Very cool. Couldn’t be said better.
May 12, 2016 @ 9:18 pm
This is great, Sturgill just seems like a great guy. And boy would I love a Stapleton, Isbell, and Simpson album. And I’ll be shocked if it doesn’t happen in some capacity.
May 14, 2016 @ 7:22 am
A t-shirt with that photo from the GQ article would be pretty cool.
May 15, 2016 @ 4:56 pm
I saw a recent interview with Morgane Stapleton where she mentioned singing backup vocals for a John Prine project. Sturgill and Isbell are close with Prine, I think, so I wonder if perhaps they are also involved with that project ? I recall that last fall, Isbell & Sturgill did a duet in Tuscaloosa, and Stapleton opened for Isbell on a show in Nashville where Isbell brought out Prine as a guest.
May 12, 2016 @ 10:34 pm
this dude is really starting to annoy me
May 13, 2016 @ 6:17 am
That’s because you just don’t get him, man. 😉
May 13, 2016 @ 6:52 am
Why?….I’m not being snarky either just interested.
May 12, 2016 @ 11:03 pm
Sturgill hasn’t listened to Isbell’s ‘Southeastern’ in its entirety or ‘Something More Than Free’ at all?
I guess I’m a more privileged man than Sturgill Simpson.
May 13, 2016 @ 7:02 am
Reading that he hasn’t listened to all of Southeastern reminded me of Eric Clapton once talking about a time when He and Stevie Ray Vaughan were on the same bill, with Stevie Ray going first. Clapton was watching Stevie Ray’s set and then just had to stop watching. He said if had kept watching much longer, he might have “done a runner”, as in bolt the hell out of there. He needed to focus on his thing and not have Stevie Ray in his head once he got on stage.
May 13, 2016 @ 6:21 am
He sounds very confused.
May 13, 2016 @ 7:34 am
He’s way too damn smart, to the point that it seems like it tortures him to some extent.
May 13, 2016 @ 7:38 am
I listened to the podcast. Good stuff in there..
I really can appreciate Sturgill integrity for his art and intelligence.
He really is pretty well spoken.
I notice you didn’t touch upon his stage fright and how he stated people think he is angry on stage, but that’s not the case. LOL
May 14, 2016 @ 7:43 am
On the stage fright issue…
I have seen Sturgill four times so far:
1. No cover show in a small room where very few people seemed to know who he was. 10/13
2. Listening room – 500 capacity, 8/14
3. Big rock club – 1200 capacity, 2/15
4. Small theatre – 1250 capacity, his first of two nights there, 9/15
I think he was the most at ease at show #2. Much bigger venue than #1, but a place where musicians love to play and with an enthusiastic, yet very attentive crowd. He chatted a fair amount between songs. I remember him telling the story of his recent Letterman appearance. After his performance, Dave stood up, walked toward the band, dropped his suit coat on the floor and shouted fan-fucking-tastic.
At show #3, he barely talked. Just took care of business. At this point, MMSICM was a huge hit and the audience was on average a good deal younger than at show #2. The crowd energy was intense. I just got the feeling that the size and intensity of the crowd was to much for him to be socially at ease. So he just kicked ass on the stage and it was glorious. Show #4 was about the same.
No anger, though. Maybe that’s coming the next time he comes through DC. I’ll be there, hopefully.
May 16, 2016 @ 7:09 am
Tickets aren’t on sale yet, but it looks like his next DC show is 10/11 at DAR Constitution Hall. The capacity is 3,700. I saw Robert Plant and Band of Joy there five years ago. Also, that’s where the recent Emmylou Harris tribute show was. Damn.
May 14, 2016 @ 7:21 am
Just listened to the podcast. Good conversation.
May 14, 2016 @ 11:38 am
This was so much more enjoyable than when he was on Rogan. I made myself finish the show when he was with Rogan, but could have listened for hours more on this one.
Sturgill really makes a point of not mentioning Sunday valley by name.
Has there been much of a difference with this release being on a major label?
May 14, 2016 @ 12:10 pm
The first time Sturgill was on Rogan, it was a treat. Unfortunately, they blew through all the magic the two had in the first one. The second had some interesting tidbits, but you had to suffer through 2 hours of Rogan geeking out on viral YouTube animal videos to get to it. This interview was power packed, and some great insight was gleaned.
I haven’t noticed any significant difference with Sturgill because of the major label deal.
May 14, 2016 @ 12:29 pm
As a fan of both Simpson and Maron’s WTF podcast, gotta agree. Maron does seem to shine when interviewing musicians more than artists from other fields. Rogan is a terrible interviewer.
May 14, 2016 @ 11:27 pm
Well, I’ve noticed one small difference with the new album being released on a major label:
It’s available at Walmart! 😉
Not that I would recommend buying music at Wally World. I assume having it there boosts sales, though.
May 16, 2016 @ 1:38 am
I couldn’t make myself get through the latest Rogan podcast. Just too much of Rogan talking about nothing, really. The WTF podcast was very enjoyable and I agree that I could have listened for much longer.
May 14, 2016 @ 12:52 pm
Trig, do you have any kind of relationship with Sturgill?
May 15, 2016 @ 1:41 pm
Strictly platonic, I assure you 🙂
In all seriousness, I frankly don’t know what Sturgill thinks about me these days, and it’s my job not to concern myself with such matters. One of my favorite sayings is that I wish that all artists would hate me equally, so that way I can be totally honest about their music and not feel like I’m letting down a friend or breaking confidences. Before Sturgill was big, we would correspond via phone, email, text quite often. But the bigger he got, the less appropriate I think it felt for both of us. And we both also got a lot more busy. Even when he was still relatively unknown, he was always a bit guarded around me, probably because he knew I was media, and partly because he’s just a guarded guy, but we were always cordial. The last time I talked with him personally was at Stubb’s in Austin about a year ago after his show there, and it was cordial. For all I know, he hates my guts now, but it’s my job to not concern myself with that kind of stuff, and just give my opinions about artists unfettered. Hopefully Sturgill respects that, and sees that I’ve always been fair with him. But a brighter spotlight and bigger success in my opinion deserves greater scrutiny. It’s nothing personal, and I still remain one of the guy’s biggest champions. I also know what he’s capable of, and I believe criticism is one of the ways to foster the creative process. Of course I don’t want artists to hate me, and in personal interactions you’d probably be surprised that I am one of the nicest guys you’d ever meet. But criticism is serious business, and I try to leave personal feeling or friendships out of the picture.
Sturgill and I have a long, but weird history. I booked his last show as Sunday Valley, and his first as Sturgill Simpson. I was the first to ever feature the guy, or interview him. These days I don’t really interview artists, because it can make it be harder to be honest about opinions later if a friendship is stoked. I once worked a merch table for Sturgill and and tried to help build him up when he was considering quitting. I believed in him before only a few others knew who he was, but at times I’ve been one of his harshest critics. He said after he released Metamodern, my opinion was the only one he read, but now I’m not sure if he reads or anything I write, or anything about himself. He would probably be smart not to. He’s blown up and I’m still here pecking away at the keyboard, but that’s the way it’s supposed to be. It’s a weird deal.
Hope this helps answer your question.
May 15, 2016 @ 3:04 pm
It does! I always appreciate backstory on just about anything.
Beautifully answered.
May 16, 2016 @ 6:57 am
Trigger,
I didn’t realize there was such a back story with him..
You’ve got a lot invested in him as a fan and supported.
I do think the struggle to stay neutral in your posts and reviews does come out.
But I understand it.
May 17, 2016 @ 1:30 pm
What a great story. The only part I find hard to believe is that you’re a nice guy 😉