I Am Not a Misogynist (An Editorial)
While at AmericanaFest in mid September, I made it a priority to attend an event put together by an organization called Change The Conversation founded by CMT senior VP music strategy Leslie Fram, artist manager and Rounder Records VP Tracy Gershon, and Middle Tennessee State University recording industry department chair and occasional columnist for The Tennessean Beverly Keel. Change The Conversation was formed in the aftermath of the whole TomatoGate controversy in 2015 when radio consultant Keith Hill famously said, “If you want to make ratings in country radio, take females out.” The organization looks to give support to up-and-coming female performers, and the event at the famous Bluebird Cafe during AmericanaFest featured performances by Arielle, Ella Mae Bowen, Kree Harrison, and rockabilly legend Wanda Jackson was the keynote speaker.
One of many reasons I wanted to attend the event was to ask a simple question as a journalist not just specializing in covering up-and-coming artists, but as a journalist that is trying to be at the forefront of solving the systemic bias against females in country music. That doesn’t mean I’m for pushing females over males if the music is of similar quality in my estimation. But there’s a clear institutionalization of the idea that females just don’t sell compared to males, even though the numbers don’t always back that up.
The question I wanted to pose was, “Can I even refer to artists to artists as ‘female’ or ‘women,’ or is this sexist in itself?
Covering female country artists has all of a sudden become a perilous enterprise. Even when you’re putting out efforts to highlight female artists, simply referring to them by their gender can be a no no, along with a host of other seemingly spanking new, and frankly unintuitive rules that will put you in the doghouse with a host of socially-conscious media members, artists, and country music celebrity Stans, and all of a sudden your good intentions for the feminine cause are turned into accusations of misogynistic idiocy on your part. And these rules aren’t explained to you with any sort of sense of gaining understanding, they’re spit at you from afar via social media that looks to smear not just your efforts, but your name.
The issue if we can even refer to artists by their gender is a big hot button topic for journalists that nobody seems to have a good answer to. Neko Case in 2014 famously slammed Playboy Magazine—who for those who may not be aware, actually is very involved in many women’s issues—when they tweeted out, “Artist Neko Case is breaking the mold of what women in the music industry should be.”
Neko Case responded to what was characterized as their “sexist” tweet with, “Am I? I AM NOT A FUCKING WOMAN IN MUSIC,” IM A FUCKING MUSICIAN IN MUSIC!”
Okay so we’re not supposed to refer to female artists by their gender. Got it. That seems like a pretty simple rule to understand and adhere to, and though it seems a little nit picky, I can understand the rationale behind it. Are male artists regularly prefaced by their gender? Not as much as women, so I can understand how that could be seen as downgrading, even if that was not your intention. After seeing another missive from a female artist named Brennen Leigh that explained the situation a little bit more rationally than Neko Case did, Saving Country Music started to try and not refer to artists as “female” or “women,” unless it was essential to the subject being broached, like in this article for example.
But this is the problem: There are a lot of organizations and individuals that are working to push women forward in music that happen to have “women” or other female sygnifyers in their titles or mission statements, and the sensitivity on this issue is causing even these organizations and individuals to find themselves in the crosshairs of sexism accusations.
On December 5th, rising country artist Margo Price lashed out via Twitter saying “If people really want to support ‘women in music,’ they should stop making silly hashtags like #WomeninMusic that classify us by our gender.”
Price was referring specifically to Billboard’s Women in Music campaign that looks to highlight female artists in the music space. Each year in December, they hold an annual awards gala, and yes, the hashtag #WomeninMusic is used to coincide with functions and press for the movement. This is what Margo Price was referring to specifically. Billboard’s Women in Music is for women, by women, in an effort to deconstruct the inherent biases present in the music industry that systematically put women at a disadvantage. CMT has a similar program called Next Women of Country, and regularly will use a hashtag referring to female gender as part of their campaigns. Are we really going to accuse these organizations and their efforts as sexist simply because they use gender identifiers?
And if Margo Price has an issue with referring to artists as “women,” why did she participate in the late July Billboard feature called “Women in Country Music” that highlighted Price, Cam, Kacey Musgraves, Maren Morris, Aubrie Sellers, and Mickey Guyton in roundtable form with well-known freelance reporter Jewly Hight? There were articles, and videos, and a photo shoot that coincided with this feature-length spread on country’s insurgent women highlighted prominently in Billboard’s annual Nashville issue.
At the time, I found the Billboard effort to be incredibly sexist myself, especially in the way they dolled up these artists and made them pose in a pretty sexual manner, and put their music in the background and made it more about their image and attitudes. I even wrote a specific article about it at the time called “No I said, What Kind of Bird Are YOU?” that looked to make the point that lumping female artists together in one setting only helps to reinforce the idea that none of them can draw enough of a crowd individually.
Why did Margo Price participate in Billboard’s gender-based coverage in July, and then slam it in December? Perhaps it’s because the first effort helped to promote her, and the second didn’t include her. Or perhaps participating in Billboard’s “Women in Country” is where Price realized the implicit biases that type of coverage helps to reinforce.
But even as I criticized Billboard’s “Women in Country” feature in pretty elaborate detail, I also made sure to state, “Any effort to help promote female artists in the current environment, or to raise the issues facing them is a worthy one.” Because it is. I didn’t slam their coverage, I attempted to help assuage it in a different direction in the future perhaps by sharing my opinion in a respectful manner.
Right now women aren’t just facing an uphill battle in music due to systematical sexism, they’re also facing an internal struggle of how to solve that problem. If female artists continue to attack and accuse the very organizations and institutions the media has constructed to help them overcome gender biases, then nothing is ever going to get accomplished.
Last week, Saving Country Music posted a small list of songs and albums that it thought were the best in the mainstream in 2016. On the list of albums, Miranda Lambert’s The Weight of These Wings came in at #3, and Brandy Clark’s Big Day in a Small Town came in at #1. Though gender didn’t weigh whatsoever into the decision to put these efforts by female artists at the top, that was the net result. But even though this was a moment where Saving Country Music was attempting to highlight how country music women right now are leading the pack in regards to quality in the mainstream, it resulted in accusations of sexism by an artist, by multiple media members, and by fans.
In the summation for Miranda Lambert’s The Weight of These Wings taken from the original Saving Country Music album review for the record, I said, “And as is true with all of Miranda Lambert’s records, there will be a greater resonance with female listeners because that’s who Miranda Lambert is most attempting to speak to, and that’s okay.”
This quote was then taken out of context by a freelance country journalist named Marissa R. Moss to attempt to illustrate the sexism of Saving Country Music—an accusation Moss has leveled at Saving Country Music before. At one point Moss said it was sexist to even refer to female artists by their first names, showing the incredible sensitivity journalists apparently must take with the subject.
Marissa R. Moss might be in the minority though, but when she tweeted out her displeasure with my remark, now Warner Music-signed recording artist Aubrie Sellers chimed in. Aubrie Sellers also participated in Billboard’s “Women of Country” spread in July. Along with Marissa, they basically accused Saving Country Music of saying that women only write for other women, when that’s not even close to what was attempting to be conveyed.
Other journalists also joined in the fray, including Matt Hendrickson who works for Garden & Gun, and Lorie Liebig who writes for Wide Open Country.
So it turned into a big smear fest against Saving Country Music, with a quote pulled completely out of context, from an article that named females as having the #1 and #3 best albums in the mainstream in 2016—something that would be a strange assertion from someone that is inherently sexist, or thinks that music from women only appeals to women. It’s also interesting that just a few days later, Aubrie Sellers was blowing kisses at Whiskey Riff for including her in their “Women of Country Wednesdays Song of the Week” feature. In fairness, Aubrie is not on record saying she has a specific problem with female artists being labeled by their gender (at least not one I could find). But it does once again illustrate the complexities and mixed messages the media is facing when it comes to the gender issue, and how a lot of this has to do with media/artist back scratching as opposed to principled stances on social issues.
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Not to get too in-depth into the back story of why that controversial quote about Miranda Lambert was included in Saving Country Music’s Miranda Lambert album review, but a commenter hit the nail on the head.
It’s funny, I remember when Trigger reviewed Miranda Lambert’s ‘Platinum’ album, he gave it a decent to middling review, and he was attacked in the comment section for npt heaping praise on it by certain people who claimed that he was missing the point on the album because it somehow speaks to the female experience, and that he couldn’t understand because he’s a man. Actually, I think something like that might have happened with some other reviews too. So, reading the review for the new Miranda album, when I got to the line about how the music might speak more to women in certain ways, it made perfect sense to me because I’ve literally heard / read women say things like that previously. And now THAT statement is itself being turned around, taken completely out of context on social media, and construed as evidence of Trigger’s sexism, LOL.
One of the differences in Saving Country Music and other media outlets is the robust comment culture. Some people think SCM’s comment culture is tasteless, or irrelevant. Others are jealous at the level of engagement and discourse that regularly occur in the comments. This is something Saving Country Music has fostered from the very beginning to underscore that everyone’s opinions on music matter, to give a forum for conversation, and to make sure Saving Country Music is not just an autocracy.
One individual who regularly participated in Saving Country Music’s comments was Windmills Country, who arguably did more for women in country music than all other journalists and outlets combined, and who passed away recently. She was not just a Saving Country Music commenter, she was an SCM contributor and behind-the-scenes confidant, but that didn’t mean we always agreed. In the comments sections, it was common for us to engage in spirited discourse, and specifically on gender issues.
The comment that Marissa R. Moss took out-of-context, and Aubrie Sellers mischaracterized was put in there specifically attempting to resolve the issues of gender perspective in regards to Miranda Lambert’s music. In other words, it was put in there at the behest of people fighting for equality of females in country feeling that strong feminine voices in country are vital to breaking down the inherent prejudices. Now maybe it was a mistake to include it in that context, or maybe it could have been worded better. But in no way was it saying that female artists only appeal to females.
Beyond that, you can’t listen to a song like Miranda Lambert’s “Pink Sunglasses,” and realistically state it doesn’t appeal more to women than men, even though in my review, I said I really enjoyed the song. At some point, just basic common sense also has to enter into the conversation, and balance out these incredibly restrictive sensitivities on the gender issue.
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This attacking of media and other entities who are attempting to equalize the playing field for country music’s women is not progressive journalism, and it’s not even activism. It’s McCarthyism. It’s attempting to smear individuals and organizations with elitist, down-looking accusations that are hurtful, irresponsible, sometimes downright incorrect, and destructive. Saying that someone is sexist or misogynist is a very strong accusation that can affect people’s personal careers, and even their personal lives. And it should be reserved for only the most obvious and universally-recognized moments when clear sexism is present, or you run the risk of desensitizing the accusation itself. It especially shouldn’t be used against the very organizations that are trying to fight the sexism in music, just because they happen to have a gender identifier in their name.
As I started off by saying, in September I went to an event for an organization called Change the Conversation. Unfortunately, my question on the right and wrong times to refer to an artist’s gender never got answered. Change The Conversation was too busy doing their job of supporting artists. Change The Conversation doesn’t have “women” in their name, and they don’t use “women” in their hashtags. But they do use the term “conversation,” which is what Saving Country Music attempted to start when it questioned Billboard’s “Women in Country” feature that included Aubrie Sellers and Margo Price, not with pointed accusations hurled like grenades from social media, but in-depth and thoughtful analysis and opinions presented in long form. “Conversation” is what occurred when Windmills Country would come to Saving Country Music and leave 10 to 12-paragraph comments, one after the other on the issue. That effort was seen as fruitful because we were attempting to breed understanding with each other, and work through the complexities of this issue.
Conversation is what is needed if women are going to truly bust through the institutional biases that exist in music to finally achieve the equality they seek. Lashing out on Twitter is more synonymous with the Trump administration as opposed to true social activism.
But equality doesn’t just mean equal time. It also means the right to face equal scrutiny. It is a sign of respect to criticize the music and efforts of women on an equal playing field as the men in music, of which Margo Price and Aubrie Sellers have seen from Saving Country Music specifically, and is the real reason for the acrimony. If all the efforts for women in country do is push women forward solely on gender—like much of the media is doing, including many of the media members that regularly love to accuse Saving Country Music of gender bias—they will never win the true equality they seek.
Instead, country music should put its best foot forward regardless of gender. It just happens to be that in the present era, especially in the mainstream, women represent that best foot. That is why Saving Country Music put Miranda Lambert, and Brandy Clark at the top of the heap in mainstream music in 2016. And attempting to tarnish that opinion with accusations of sexism does no good for anybody.
You will not find one instance where I have said Saving Country Music is perfect, or that I’ve never made mistakes in my efforts here, including mistakes that probably be labeled as sexist. And as the issues of sexism in country music have risen to the forefront, I’ve put out effort to understand the issue more from the female perspective, and will continue those efforts. I may be an asshole, and it’s my job to not care about the public perception of my opinion. But one thing I am not is a misogynist. And neither are the dozens of other men and women in the media and elsewhere looking to push women forward, who happen to refer to them for convenience and reference by their gender.
And if you happen to disagree, then talk to them. Have a conversation. Because throwing accusations out on social media isn’t only combative, it is counter-productive to the effort. Get on board. Get in line. Speak, don’t shout. Engage instead of accuse. And perhaps through unity of effort, women in country music can finally achieve the equal playing field they deserve.
December 19, 2016 @ 11:56 am
I think that putting the “woman” tag on a musician actually helps them. If there were no gender classification, and no females being played on the radio, how could anyone complain?
December 19, 2016 @ 12:01 pm
Hmm given how often this blog takes comments out of context I find this moderately ironic (most recently the Sundance head comment about “inventing soul country”). In truth it’s almost impossible to give a large number of interviews/tweets/write articles without making one or two comments that can be taken by an individual or group in the wrong way.
That being said, I did raise an eyebrow at that comment in the Miranda album, but decided I sort of knew what you were getting at, and it wasn’t worth highlighting. The problem is, Miranda’ album shouldn’t be known as aimed at “women” just because it’s a woman singing about moving on after a relationship, or doing things are are generally ascribed to men i.e. drinking and sex. This is why Dierks’ song was misogynistic in intent, not just execution. In themes and production it’s not really all that different than many other albums. Just because men tend to not buy music made by women doesn’t make something aimed at women.
Also, (and maybe I’ve missed it) I’ve never seen a comment, this album is aimed at males. It’s the double standards that are often the problem. Where it seems as if you’re attaching women to something in a way that separates it off as not being part of the mainstream. In truth a lot of country music, made by both men and women, tends to be bought more by women. If you go to a Luke Bryan concert for instance, the majority of the audience is women, even if the description of his music is bro-country.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:06 pm
Anyways I don’t think labeling something women is always misogynistic, but I think (especially if it’s a guy – sorry) you have to think about why you are saying it & have a reason behind it is about a larger point.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:18 pm
This is not an article that is just about a quote of mine taken out of context, it is an attempt to broach the subject of how we refer to gender in music, and to make sure were respecting each other and our common efforts as opposed to lashing out at like-minded individuals due to simple misunderstandings.
I don’t want to insult or talk down to anybody accidentally. Sometimes I do that on purpose, but that’s a different thing. So if artists feel like prefacing their music with gender is wrong, I will respect that, and I have been respecting that. If there’s other issues, bring them up and let’s see if we can find some common ground.
I do think I’ve labeled music previously as being preferred more by men than women. I would have to dig for the specific cases, but they are there. That’s simply part of your job as music curator. You want to do your job of getting the right music to the right people, and understanding demographics is part of that. Artists do this all the time too, including females. Asking who your audience is isn’t sexism, it’s smart. That way you know where to train your resources.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:28 pm
I think you missed the general purpose of my post. Anyways different people have different sensitivity points, so you’ll never get universal agreement. And I agree with you that it’s an important discussion, and important to respect people. As long as both sides are open to having a reasonable conversation rather than just saying everything get’s labelled racist/sexist so therefore I can close my ears and not listen, I think we’re on the right track.
In this particular case, I will admit, I found your quote in the article on Miranda to be troubling. In that, while yes, most of her consumers are women, I don’t think the album was written for women in particular, as much as it was universal themes that most humans can relate to. For reasons (and this is a different thread), any album released by a woman is going to be bought mostly by women.
December 19, 2016 @ 1:36 pm
To not think women write songs for women,even if unintentionally, is foolish. I’ll use Brandy Clark as an example. While I enjoy her song Hold My Hand immensely my wife has an emotional reaction to that song. Went to a Courtney Patton show ,amazing by the way( thanks To This site) and while I enjoyed the hell out of it my wife was brought to tears a few times. So of course they write songs that talk to women on a personal level.
December 19, 2016 @ 1:53 pm
Were you brought to tears by any other musical performances this year? Perhaps it’s more fair to say that you and your wife have different reactions to music than to ascribe the different reactions to the gender of the individual singing?
Also keep in mind that many songs nowadays have both male and female co-writers, including the majority of the songs on Miranda’s album. Shrug, I would say Pistol Annie’s was more of a for women by women project.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:04 pm
It wasn’t a reaction brought upon by the gender of the performer it was a reaction to the song that was very obviously meant to invoke feelings in a woman. That’s not sexist, that’s just fact Do women only write songs for women? Of course not which is why Trigger didn’t say that. But to think they never do is just insane. Women have a point of view that men don’t and vice versa so of course that will show up in their songs.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:53 pm
Hold her hand is written from the perspective of a lover, gender not stated. But here’s the thing, you are ascribing your wife’s more emotional reaction/connection to the song to the gender of the song writer, as opposed to you and your wife being different people. It’s entirely possible that that night, or on a different night, a man was moved to tears by that same song. Also many women in the audience that night probably didn’t cry.
Your example is basically the reason that women get frustrated with having their music labeled as for women. Nothing about that song is actually woman specific. But basically every song song by a woman somehow gets labeled as for women, by some man, because it doesn’t speak to him in the same way. Maybe that song just doesn’t speak to you. Which doesn’t mean that women don’t write for women, or have a different perspective. An example of a song actually written for women would be “Hell on Heels”. But it’s not true of every single song written by a woman, or even every “emotional” song.
December 20, 2016 @ 10:27 am
Seak05 – there are nine gendered pronoun references in the lyrics to “Hold My Hand”.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:13 pm
Everything is sexist/racist. It’s 2016, I figured we’d all learned that by now. Personally, I don’t care if it’s a man or a woman singing the song-I either enjoy it or I don’t. For example, I don’t enjoy Miranda Lambert or even Kacey Musgraves, but I love the hell out of Margo Price. Margo Price could sing the phone book or the communist manifesto and I’d still love it
December 19, 2016 @ 7:10 pm
Agreed.
I’m honestly to the point that I don’t know if I should hold doors open for women anymore because I’m afraid that I’m gonna get some over sensitive feminist that’s going to scream at me for not thinking she could do it herself and how dare I treat her any different than I would a man.
I DONT FUCKING GET IT.
December 20, 2016 @ 11:23 am
You’re being racist.
haha j/k I agree 1000%
December 20, 2016 @ 3:31 pm
You don’t hold doors for men too?
December 21, 2016 @ 6:59 am
I consider holding a door open for someone common courtesy and will do so for any person. Man, woman, child. Doesn’t matter. I don’t consider it chivalry. If a woman did take offense to me hold the door for her, I would explain my view. If that doesn’t satisfy her, it’s not my problem. There. Done.
Something I never do is open the passenger car door for an able bodied woman that I’m with (wife, sister, friend, whatever), because a woman is fully capable of opening her own damn door.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:20 pm
Fuck em Trig. Youre making a real difference in a DIY grass-roots way so of course these people backed by big entities want to stir shit with you. Damned if you do, damned if you dont. Its clear where you stand youve done just as much to push female artists as you have males and treat the two on an equal playing level. It is SCMs best songs and albums in 2016. Period. Not by males or by females but everyone.
Good piece. Try not to sweat it. Some people were clearly upset they werent included in your list so theyll find any absurd reason to attack you to console themselves ‘oh hes some backwards sexist redneck – he wouldnt get MY music anyways’. Fuck ’em. Keep doing your thing anyone who has followed your site and doesnt just come here to mine potentially ‘sexist’ quotes out of context knows these people are full of shit.
Its a shame that these big fully backed outlets picked you to attack. Makes ya wonder?
December 19, 2016 @ 12:33 pm
“. At one point Moss said it was sexist to even refer to female artists by their first names, showing the incredible sensitivity journalists apparently must take with the subject.”
Holy fuck is she serious? What the hell else are you going to call them if its so sexist to call the female artists by the first name. By that logic its sexist to call every female out there by their first name. What the hell else name should I be call since I’m female? This overly sensitive stuff is done getting out of hand to paraphrase the title of an awesome Waylon Jennings song.
(Hope you don’t mind the couple of swear words there)
December 19, 2016 @ 3:15 pm
I refer to Sturgill all the time as Sturgill. I don’t have to say his last name because everybody knows who I’m talking about. I’ve never been accused of disrespect for it. I refer to artists all the time by their first names.
The point of criticizing me for referring to Margo Price by her first name as proof I’m sexist has nothing to do with sexism at all. It is an attempt to discredit my opinion by slandering me because some don’t agree with that opinion. This is how the accusations of sexism get desensitized over time to the point where they don’t have any meaning. It’s like the boy who cried wolf.
December 19, 2016 @ 3:30 pm
It really is an insidious process. First they hammer some issue and call the target ‘sexist’ or ‘racist’ or whatever and then do it over and over and over and then at some future point down the road that same person will comment on some other maybe related topic and then quickly the earlier incident will be trotted out to discredit the current opinion. Rinse and repeat.
This is by far the worst effect of social media on our culture and as you mentioned over time it is having the exact opposite effect which is now sending the snowflakes into ever more violent paroxysms of rage.
December 19, 2016 @ 4:42 pm
Oh I think I get what your saying now and I’ve seen it before now that I think about, people calling others something -ist just cause they don’t agree with them and whatnot, like what Scotty said. Sorry if I was a bit knew jerky there, but its like if I was an artist known only by my first name, I wouldn’t give a shit if I was only referred to as that, I would completely be fine with that.
I think its silly that people are standardizing you and whatnot, accusing you of things you’re not. I never felt once reading this blog that you were something -ist. You’ve been nothing but respectful imo and honest too. And silly in general as well to accuse people something they are not just cause they have a different opinion.
I’m definitely on your side on this Trig.
December 21, 2016 @ 10:41 am
Using last names only works if they have a weird or uncommon last name. Or maybe we should refer to everybody by their last name just to confuse people. This is stupid. They just need to go to their safe space.
December 19, 2016 @ 5:48 pm
So now we are sexist if we say Reba, Dolly, Madonna, Jewel, ect. Then there is the sexist names like Lady Gaga and Lady Antebellum that actually have their gender in the name. I don’t know what to do about Loretta because if I call her Lynn somebody might still think I’m referring to a woman by their first name and I can’t call her the coal miner’s daughter because that implies gender as well. We are Fucked
December 21, 2016 @ 9:55 am
Not to mention, Reba has used only her first name in all sorts of promo materials and on her album covers since… 1988? And she’s also one of country’s most well-known feminists too.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:33 pm
2002…Halle Berrie wins best ACTRESS…if she didn’t have a female classification, it’s unlikely she would have beaten Denzell for Best Actor. 2015…Elisa Dell Donne (sp?) won the WNBA mvp…she wouldn’t make the top 40 in votes had she been in the NBA. This last election, Hillary campaigned in part (unsuccessfully, thank God) on being the first WOMAN president…All these things are used to gain women more recognition. How is that offensive?
December 19, 2016 @ 12:36 pm
Social media is just a disease on this country at this point. Hell, social media is a disease on critical thinking, human intelligence, and knowledge at this point. Twitter and Facebook can’t die a quick enough death.
December 23, 2016 @ 1:05 pm
This is the best comment I have read here in my two years of regular reading.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:41 pm
There’s a fine line to be walked. I believe Margo Price is the #1 country artist out there. Not the #1 female country artist. If one were to say she is the #1 female artist is puts her in a second column in the general public’s view even if they don’t realize it. On the other hand women should be celebrated for breaking through a male dominated industry.
By rule of thumb I stick to what the artists wants. I am a man so I can’t fully identify with what a woman goes through. But I am a man who deals with being put in a second class system based on my heritage and can understand the constant struggle of looking in from the outside. I can tell you what offends me more is generally the tone of someone telling me what I should be offended by or what the motivation is by their original comment. If it is to bolster a systematic process of discrimination I’ll speak right up. If it is to celebrate heritage of a minority people in a dominant and dismissive society then it is good. Maybe it’s something like that?
December 19, 2016 @ 1:25 pm
So should Margo Price not accept any awards in her future that are gender specific? I bet she won’t.
December 20, 2016 @ 12:52 pm
It’s not up to Margo to accept or deny gender specific awards. It’s up to the industry to stop giving them out.
December 20, 2016 @ 3:06 pm
Good point.
Though I think the awards shows are probably too institutionalized at this point to just take gender out of the mix, taking “woman” out of the title of some of these organizations like Billboard’s “Women in Music” or CMT’s “Next Women of Country” could make sure that they don’t alienate the same artists they’re looking to support. That’s what’s so great about the title of the organization “Change the Conversation” that I highlighted in the article. If Margo Price is asked to be part of a big Billboard spread, she’s put in the position of possibly having to say “no” because she’s taken a stand against such use of gender identifiers. That is why I think this is such and important issue to discuss.
Also interesting, the Americana Music Association doesn’t have genders for their awards. It’s just Album, Song, New Artist, Group, etc. So there is a model for doing it in the awards show space, but to expect these legacy awards to revert I think is probably pie in the sky.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:44 pm
Well written article Trig. Way to come at the issue with an open mind and an attempt at fairness. It’s frustrating to see people labelled and attacked based on a hypersensitivity to various phrases/ actions. Good job showing another way to approach sensitive topics.
December 19, 2016 @ 12:53 pm
Sorry for the off topic but who the f**ck is CHASE STAPLETON?
December 19, 2016 @ 1:59 pm
How wonderfully random. All I know is that he’s from California, and has a new album out in Nashville.
December 19, 2016 @ 1:22 pm
I don’t know that female songwriters write songs for women for the most part, but the fact that the songwriter is a woman does impact the perspective of many songs. And I think that’s a good thing! No matter how sensitive I try to be, there are some things in a woman’s experience that I’m not really going to understand in any real way. Many of my favorite songwriters are women and I think part of that is because of this different view they bring to the world. So no, I’m not going to just lump them in with the guys and pretend they’re all exactly the same.
December 19, 2016 @ 1:25 pm
Unfortunately, a man telling a woman what is or isn’t sexism just makes him look more sexist.
December 19, 2016 @ 3:25 pm
Part of what I was trying to accomplish here is to illustrate how difficult it is for someone to know what others are going to deem as sexist. This isn’t just about Saving Country Music, and it isn’t even just about men. Billboard’s Women of Country is attempting to help female artists, is a mostly women’s organization, and they’re being accused of sexism by using gender classification in their title. Can we not all take a deep breath and understand we’re all trying to work towards the same goal here? I don’t want to come across as sexist to anyone, but you run the risk simply by broaching the subject of females in music.
If feel the same way about parking downtown. I rarely go downtown, but when I do, it’s difficult to know where you can park and when. There’s all kinds of signs and regulations, some that seem to disagree with each other. So you park in the safest place you can find, overpay the meter you’re not even sure if you need to pay in the first place because it may be free after 6 p.m., and when you get back two hours later, your car is towed. It’s not that you purposely defied the laws, it’s that they’re being presented in a way that is completely unituitive and there’s no way to become fully informed. And even though you put out your best effort, you still fail. Then what happens next? You never go downtown.
(hope that illustration makes sense)
December 19, 2016 @ 3:38 pm
To continue the analogy. If you go downtown a lot though, you get more comfortable with the rules and the signs, and what once seemed confusing, starts to make more sense.
If parking downtown is something you’re unfamiliar with, and you ask questions, and listen when people tell you you screwed up, most people are willing to cut you a break. If on the other hand you get angry/defensive at the confusing signs, and start telling people that the signs and rules are dumb, people who do understand the signs tend to think poorly of you and think you have a problem.
December 19, 2016 @ 3:40 pm
The illustration makes sense, even though I think talking about sexism is infinitely more important than going downtown.
My point is basically this: if you find yourself in a position where you have to write an article called “I am not a misogynist,” you should probably attempt to LISTEN, rather than doubling down and pointing fingers a bunch of respected successful women. It’s not a good look.
And yes. Feminism is complicated. But that doesn’t mean we should abandon it just because it makes you uncomfortable.
December 19, 2016 @ 4:06 pm
Alex,
Who says I’m not willing to listen? As I illustrated above, I saw from numerous female artists that they believed being prefaced by their gender was downgrading. And so I made a change. I didn’t argue the point. I want to be respectful to women, so I stopped labeling them by gender unless for whatever reason it was unavoidable.
As I explained at the very beginning of this article, I am confused why female artists are attacking institutions set up by media entities to help support them. I would like to have a discussion on that. That has nothing to do with me, Marissa Moss, or anybody else. And that doesn’t make me feel “uncomfortable,” and frankly, it’s a little insulting to insinuate that. If there is something that women find offensive, they need to communicate that. What I’m getting right now by numerous people on Twitter is, “Well you just don’t get it. That’s why you’re a misogynist.”
This is not Saving Country Music vs. Marissa R Moss. That was only offered as an illustration. This is Margo Price vs. Billboard’s Women in Music, and in that situation, it’s women vs. women. Women are attacking each other over these issues, and the ultimate result is the undermining of their position. This is a bigger issue, and it needs to be discuss in mature, open dialog.
December 19, 2016 @ 4:54 pm
As far as you being “uncomfortable” with talking about sexism, I wasn’t trying to insult you, but I was pointing out that in your analogy you said that all the conflicting rules downtown made you want to avoid it. And I’m saying we shouldn’t avoid talking about sexism just because it’s difficult.
In the end it doesn’t matter which “versus” you intended to highlight with this article, because of the nature in which this kind of thing is consumed. When you tell women they’re wrong about their own oppression, it seems like an act of SILENCING. And when you go on to call out specific women by name, it makes them TARGETS to the more hateful corners of your readership.
As for Margo’s comments, she’s right. There shouldn’t have to be a Women in Music hashtag. It’s frustrating that we’re not past the point of needing to point out that women make music too. Even if women are the people behind Women in Music, it’s still discouraging that it had to be created at all. It’s not women vs. women. It’s one woman expressing frustration with the fact that we still need to have categories that casually underscore that they’re good “for a girl.”
It’s complicated for everyone, but I’m not going to fault her for expressing frustration with a life experience I know nothing about.
December 19, 2016 @ 6:53 pm
I’m not going to stop talking about either country artists who happen to be female, or the issues facing female artists. Even if I’m hated and vilified by those artists. I don’t run a popularity contest. I’ve been not giving a shit what people think about my opinions for going on 10 years. The reason for the “not going downtown” remark doesn’t have to do with me. Right now you have multiple artists on record saying they don’t want gender identifiers attributed to them. You also have major media entities such as Billboard and CMT who have specific organizations set up to help support those artists that use gender identifiers in their names. If Billboard, CMT, and others continue to get attacked for being insensitive or even sexist for talking about “Women in Music,” especially if their goal is to actually support these same women, then they’re going to stop. And then everybody’s screwed.
Right now women are cutting the legs out from the very institutions set up to help support them via quippy social network snaps when they should be conversing with each other about a better path forward.
December 20, 2016 @ 4:04 pm
Sorry dude. Men can’t tell women how feminism “should” be done.
December 20, 2016 @ 8:22 pm
“Saying that someone is sexist or misogynist is a very strong accusation that can affect people’s personal careers, and even their personal lives. And it should be reserved for only the most obvious and universally-recognized moments when clear sexism is present, or you run the risk of desensitizing the accusation itself.”
This statement may imply you aren’t listening by asking people not to speak up. And this is how everyday discrimination doesn’t get addressed or why women get singled out as whiney shrews for bringing up the “smaller” sexism we see every day. If we had to wait till we had a man’s hand on our ass (or some other obvious example) every time we spoke up…
I’ve been a long time reader, but never commented. This is a good source for finding out about music I’ll love, but sometimes you do make comments about women that are cringe worthy and I have considered finding other sources from time to time. I do hope you are listening and consider what small statements can add up to over time.
March 18, 2017 @ 10:21 am
Alex,
Then women shouldn’t be telling men about masculinity.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:01 pm
Whoa, I thought you already wrote an article along these lines. Obviously trigger is not sexist or a misogynist. Miranda has been since the start of her career targeting women with her music. People don’t want to accept that men and women are different on a fundamental level beyond physical appearance. So you have to separate their efforts, Margo price ain’t no sturgill Simpson, she couldn’t be if she tried. That doesn’t make him better than her, he was always better than her.lol.
But trigger you shouldn’t have to defend yourself against a journalist with half your talent, a shameless self promoter who has no great calling so she is latching on to the most predictable issue for a female writer. Marissa is the sexist for even attempting to push this ridiculous agenda. She wanted female artist to be faceless and nameless.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:26 pm
On a larger level (not specifically targeting Trigger or Miranda), men tend to be uncomfortable with the idea of a woman representing them, their feelings, their thoughts. Men don’t want women calling NBA games, or NFL, but it’s ok for them to call the WNBA. We have basketball, and women’s basketball etc. Men also don’t tend to want to vote for women, while women are ok with voting for and being represented by men, be it politics (not talking about the last election or party, just keep in mind that 52% of the population is women, and 6 current women governors, some R, some D), sports, or music.
So women sometimes want separate awards etc, because otherwise they tend to never win, while men often want to separate things out bc those women are speaking for women, not for me.
December 19, 2016 @ 3:09 pm
Empirical evidence, (of men not wanting female representation), please. THAT is a sexist comment if ever I’ve heard (read) one. But I guess since you’re of the female gender that’s allowed. Right?!
MOST if not all men who are married are represented by their wives. Empirical evidence: Wives have the last word on most things that are representative of the family, and unfortunately (for the overly sensitive, family includes men) If not there is tremendous discord in said family, and not because of the man. Ever heard the saying; “if mama’s not happy no one is happy”?
The over-sensitive BS of “artist” (and lying scum bag politico’s) both female and male needs to go away. Sooner rather than later.
And don’t attack me with words that mean I’m sexist or close minded. I turned 69 today and I’ve ALWAYS respected women and called out “men” who didn’t. I’ve helped raise 2 sons to be the same and the one thing we (and most men) have in common in regards to women is never getting it right to suit them. BUT, we RESPECT your right to be that way. It makes us different, not enemies.
This whole gender reference thing is pitiful, no matter who uses it.
Trigger did a superb job of putting forth his point and you took one small part and made an issue of it.
At times you’ve done an excellent job of presenting your “perspective” and I’ve “liked” your statements, but, these are clouded by, no doubt, your “female” nuances, which is okay, but, realize it, acknowledge it and stop being so female if you don’t want to be recognized as such.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:29 pm
I will never understand why things have to get personal when someone simply expresses their view on a particular topic. I know Marissa Moss very well and she is an amazingly talented writer and is extremely well respected journalist among her peers. There’s no need to make this personal as she was merely expressing her point of view on a topic which, I gather, she is passionate about (calling out a comment as sexist is different than calling someone sexist). Her comments weren’t taken out of context, but you shouldn’t take my word for that, you should do the research yourself. I do think that a man telling a woman how she should or shouldn’t feel is sexist and it seems like that’s what’s going on here.
December 19, 2016 @ 3:32 pm
I haven’t said anything “personal” about Marissa Moss or anyone else. On numerous occasions now, she has accused me of judging females wrongfully specifically based on their gender, and that is a very strong and personal accusation. When those opinions get bunched in with other journalists and artists, it can reach a point where it can be damaging to someone’s public character and personal career. I take these accusations very seriously, and it’s the reason I felt the need to address them publicly. Calling someone a sexist is passing a very strong judgement on that person. And it’s irresponsible unless you know that individual personally. Marissa Moss does not know me.
December 19, 2016 @ 4:08 pm
I don’t believe she called you a sexist. She said the comments you made could be characterized as being sexist. This is a big distinction. You made it personal by singling her out and misrepresenting her view. Other people in this comments section have seized on this and personally attacked her. We can disagree with others but we should do it respectively. There’s a right way and a wrong way. I think you need to give that some thought.
December 19, 2016 @ 7:01 pm
Stu,
Marissa R. Moss specifically attacked me for being a sexist months ago when I said that Margo Price was picked too quickly to play Saturday Night Live. She said I was sexist because I didn’t say a similar thing about Chris Stapleton when that comparison is apples and bowling balls. Then she said specifically that referring to Margo Price by her first name proved I was a sexist and disrespectful towards women. Then she implied that I think all women only write music for women. These were personal attacks made to discredit my opinion before I ever wrote this article. This article is not about Marissa R. Moss no matter how much others may want to make it out to be. This is about the complexities of the gender issue in country music, and how it’s inherently unfair for folks to levy accusations against people for being insensitive or sexist when the rules of the road have not been defined even by the entities constructed to support female performers.
December 20, 2016 @ 8:53 am
1.) I’ve been following this story closely for some time and Marissa Moss never attacked you or called you sexist or a misogynist. Misrepresenting someone is unethical and some might even go further and say it’s slander. I, along with your readers, would love to see the explicit proof of Marissa Moss calling you a sexist. Please show us. 2.) You may not be a sexist (although, I believe, some of your comments are), but you are certainly a bully for unnecessarily singling someone out and then misrepresenting/lying about their position. 3.) Your position that just because you put women in a top country albums list doesn’t make you a sexist is ridiculous and is akin to the “I have a black friend so therefore I’m obviously not a racist” argument. Sounds like a politician we all know. 4.) I find it interesting that you felt the need to dedicate an entire essay to why you’re not a sexist (given that no one ever called you a sexist). “Thou dost protest too much”, you think??
December 20, 2016 @ 11:27 am
“Misrepresenting someone is unethical and some might even go further and say it’s slander.”
Exactly. That’s why I felt like the borderline slanderous accusations against me by Marissa R. Moss and Aubrie Sellers had to be dealt with directly. This was not drama I started. As I’ve explained, what stimulated this was naming an album by a female artist as one of the best in 2016. This was an effort at positivity and support. And that effort was rewarded with borderline slanderous misrepresentations of opinions and acrimony. I just responded to it.
Of course Marissa R. Moss thinks I’m sexist, and has represented that on Twitter. Are you kidding me? That’s the only thing we all agree on. And just note, this is not just one episode. This is the second time Moss has done this, and the first time makes this one look like tiddly winks.
“Your position that just because you put women in a top country albums list doesn’t make you a sexist is ridiculous and is akin to the “I have a black friend so therefore I’m obviously not a racist” argument.”
See, this is where you and a lot of other folks are patently wrong about this issue, and should have spent a little more time looking into the positions and ink spilled by Saving Country Music on this “Women in Country Music” topic. I have written more articles on this subject than anyone. Period. More than Marissa R. Moss and all of her surrogates combined. More than anyone else in country music. And I’ve been writing about this subject longer than anyone else aside from Billboard and Windmills Country (referenced above). The idea that I am some sort of novice, male-centric boob who bit off more than he could chew here is just not supported by this history of this website.
When I have a moment, I will post some links (which I’ve been reluctant to do), and some screenshots of tweets to corroborate all of this.
December 20, 2016 @ 11:57 am
Oh please, we all know what this is about. A woman made you look bad (because she actually had a valid and credible point) and the only thing you could do was try to bully and slander her. Classy man, very classy.
I’ll save you the time, here’s the other link you were probably never going to post because it’s proof you’re lying. Please show me where she calls you a sexist.
https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=from%3Amarissarmoss%20%40KyleCoroneos&src=typd&lang=en
December 20, 2016 @ 3:20 pm
Stu,
Thanks for the link. Saved me some digging.
Let me try to explain where the biggest point of misunderstanding about Saving Country Music historically comes from as an answer to your accusation. It’s not just that I don’t care what anybody thinks about me, it’s that Saving Country Music shares its opinions unfettered in a principled and systematical manner that purposely is ambivalent to public perception. This is baked into the entire makeup of this website. SCM has no partners, underwriters, co-owners, advertisers (all ads are pre-filled, which means I make significantly less money) to keep happy. That way I can say whatever the hell I want.
For example, when I decided to say that it was too early for Margo Price to play SNL, I knew that would be a very unpopular opinion. I knew it would result in a loss of readers, of social network followers, and would vilify me among certain fans. But it’s my job to not care, and assert that opinion anyway. And the reason for that is because it was a very important opinion to assert. Not to brag, but you would have your mind blown apart by the amount of artists, and big-named folks within both the independent and mainstream country industry that reached out to me about that article specifically, thanking me because they knew it was VITAL someone said it publicly, but nobody else was in a position to actually say it publicly due to the politics of the industry. It is irrelevant if Marissa R. Moss and her followers like me, or hate me. In fact, I would prefer that they hate me, that way I don’t have to feel like I have to placate them. My job is to say the things that need to be said. And that’s what I did here. Marissa R. Moss was a tiny part of this issue. The fact that it’s being made all about her by some folks is pretty telling. They’re her friends. I get it. I purposefully avoid friends in this business. That way I can actually tell the truth.
I don’t hate Marissa R. Moss. I appreciate her contributions to the country music landscape, and I look forward to working with her on this issue of women in country music, because it’s one that is very dear to my heart, and clearly it’s dear to hers. But we’re going to handle this like adults. We’re going to do it through conversations and think pieces, not trading barbs on Twitter. Or at least that’s the way I’m going to handle it.
December 20, 2016 @ 7:30 pm
That’s a pretty big assumption Stu. Slanderous maybe? I was following you until your last comment. Considering this whole comment thread is about the power of words, I don’t think you’re being fair by assuming that Trigger wrote this article because he wants to degrade a woman instead of setting the record straight. A lot of his work has been dedicated to equality towards women in music. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt instead of a crucifixion. Everyone makes mistakes. Maybe you could be a bit more gracious.
December 20, 2016 @ 8:44 pm
I’m pretty disappointed in the Marissa/Aubrie Twitter exchange. With respect to Change the Conversation, their response should be something of an articulate and intelligent nature that makes a point relevant to the issue of concern. Instead, their responses are childish and nonproductive. If they had an issue, they missed an opportunity. Where did I read recently that more songs need to be written for women?
December 19, 2016 @ 2:36 pm
A problem with modern activists is that they look to be offended and interpret EVERYTHING as sexist–or racist, in some cases. Moss is sure that if someone refers to Miranda Lambert as “Miranda,” that’s sexism. The fact that singers from “Frankie,” back in the day, to “Elvis,” to “John,” “Paul,” “George” and “Ringo,” to “Kenny” and “Keith” and “Luke” today are all regularly referred to by their first names by fans and writers alike is not going to change the opinion of a p.c. activist: It doesn’t matter how many guys are called by their first names. When it’s a woman, the motivation must be sexist.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:54 pm
When all you got is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
So many people today are so immersed in these victim cultures it becomes impossible for them to see clearly.
It really strikes me as such an unhappy way to go through life.
December 20, 2016 @ 3:44 pm
Please post where I used the words “sexist” or “misogynist.”
December 20, 2016 @ 4:34 pm
Marissa,
At no point in this article did I say that you called me sexist or misogynist directly. Maybe I said in passing in one of the dozen comments I’ve posted, but I won’t argue that point with you. You didn’t ever call me “sexist” or “misogynist” directly. But I didn’t even mention you in the first 16 paragraphs of this article. This was not some hit job on you. What I said was,
“This quote was then taken out of context by a freelance country journalist named Marissa R. Moss to attempt to illustrate the sexism of Saving Country Music—an accusation Moss has leveled at Saving Country Music before. At one point Moss said it was sexist to even refer to female artists by their first names, showing the incredible sensitivity journalists apparently must take with the subject.”
This article is not “Marissa R. Moss Calls Saving Country Music Misogynist.” This is me affirming that I want to be a part of the solution on the issue of the systemic degrading of women in country music, but it’s difficult to know how to be when the rules appear to be mutable, and artists are taking issue with the very institutions the media have been created to help support them.
I don’t want to get into an argument of semantics. It’s a little bit funny to me that some 30 hours after this was posted, some think they’ve finally found the checkmate to my intellectual argument. But I think we agree on this issue more than we disagree. I’m sure you don’t appreciate me singling out out in this article, but I didn’t appreciate you singling me out on Twitter. We both used each other’s words to illustrate broader points we were trying to make.
I’ve said my peace and moved on, and now I’d rather talk about solutions to the problems I presented as opposed to going back and forth trying to score more body blows. I respect you as a journalist and you clearly are passionate about this subject, as am I. So let’s channel that passion into something positive as opposed to endless back and forths where everyone loses. I mean this sincerely.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:41 pm
Look it’s the guy who writes fake blogs about real articles. Hey I’m putting out a concept album that’s about how The Beatles suck… Does anyone care? Nope.
December 19, 2016 @ 2:47 pm
Trigger, I consider myself a very strong and passionate feminist. I took Women’s and Gender Studies in college and I’m dedicated to social justice and feminist causes. I am fairly new to your blog. I found it this year, I think, and I have been consistently impressed with how you feature women in country music. I appreciate your efforts and I find you to be sincere. Even we feminists don’t do everything perfectly. We’re human and we make mistakes ourselves. Still, it’s important to keep giving more attention to women artists. Don’t let the criticism you’ve received stop you from doing that. What matters is that we keep speaking out and championing great music and fighting for a place for women in country music. You are part of that effort. No one’s perfect, but you’re open to discussion, constructive criticism, and you’re listening to different perspectives and I think that’s a great thing. I enjoy your blog and will continue to support it.
December 19, 2016 @ 3:33 pm
BTW, KT Oslin’s 80’s Ladies is one (of many female artists) of my all time favorites.
You do a good job Trigger! It’s your web site to do with as you see fit.
Noun 1. misogynist – a misanthrope who dislikes women in particular
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogynist
December 19, 2016 @ 4:01 pm
That headline cracked me up! You are definitely NOT a misogynist. Sounds like Moss and Sellers (cos we’re not allowed to use first names, right?) may be suffering from a case of misandry (one who hates men). Keep up the good fight, Trig and Merry Christmas x
December 19, 2016 @ 4:19 pm
if nothing else, because of you I’ve been able to listen and enjoy a ton of music I wouldn’t otherwise have ever known about. Because of the gender bias in radio (my other primary source of music), you have introduced me to more females than males. Thank you for that as there really is so much tremendous music coming out.
I think the big point of this article is very important. I am 100% sure i’ve said and done sexist things and will do more in the future. If people could talk to me, teach me, explain why certain stuff hurts and how it can be done better i’m happy to listen. If you jump to insults, i just won’t “park downtown”.
May have been a BIT long which will turn off the audience (much of it looking for a reason to be turned off).
December 19, 2016 @ 5:41 pm
2 other q’s,
1) anyone have her original article? Cant’ find the link.
2) People do realize “most” DNE “All” or “only” right? Is the issue here that “mostly” sounds like it’s close to all as opposed to a plurality (my interpretation)? Is it sexist (or false) to say HRC resonated mostly with women even though millions of men also voted for her? Happy to learn. I’m mostly confused.
December 19, 2016 @ 6:31 pm
Hey Parth,
There was no article. Just a bunch of of stuff on Twitter.
December 19, 2016 @ 5:03 pm
I’m middle aged, female, living in Nashville and have worked in the music industry. When I did, I sat around board rooms with successful women whose goal was to band together and do great things as women in what is still a male dominated industry. I have been honey’ed and darlin’ed to death by men who discounted every word out of my mouth and smiled and said honey right back at them. (Because that is what you do lest you be replaced by three interns.) Nashville is not yet equal. It may never be, thanks in large part to consumer demographics, but that’s another story. My point here, though, is that what you’re dealing with is women who are, quite frankly, too young and idealistic to admit it yet. If they think being defined as female or women is misogynistic, then thankfully for them, they have not experienced what misogyny really is…. Yet. In my 20s, I would have said the same. In my 30s, I was naively shocked when I experienced subversive sexism that I didn’t believe existed anymore. In my 40s, I say ladies, wear your success as a female in this town as a badge of honor and roar! It took more to get you where you are than it did your male counterparts and you should proudly make that s#!t known. BTW, misogyny is one of the many reasons I left the business, but I fully support my many female friends who still rock it. ☺ They have more patience and determination than I do, no doubt.
December 19, 2016 @ 5:19 pm
Thanks Trigger because you put so much time on this issue. I have read almost everything you’ve written since I first upptäkte your web page. For about 1 and half years ago. And when I read your articles I read them with your other articles on the same topic in mind. Which means that even if I’d read something that on the surface seem sexist, I would probably not recognize them as sexist. Because I think you’ve done more than most people in terms of promoting women. So thanks again for all the work you put into it.
And as to whether it is mostly women or men who buy music recorded by women… A few years ago a program was broadcast in Swedish TV about the history of Country Music that is now also available on Youtubel.
In one episode about Loretta Lynn a man makes following statement:
“Who do you think bought Loretta Lynn: Men? I don’t think so”
https://youtu.be/jsKt1lpf6jU?t=7m32s
I discovered Loretta in the mid seventies. And I bought every album I could find.
So when I saw that episode and that assertive statement about wich gender that bought her records, I began to doubt my own gender … 🙂
And as it’s soon Christmas. I’d also like to say Merry Christmas to… Y’ALL… 🙂
And here’s a link to a “Christmas Carol” . The song is a, (somewhat simplified), cover of a song, written by two men, but sung by five women … 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH5yXl_W0mQ
December 19, 2016 @ 5:58 pm
sorry for messing it up again…:-(
The first sentence should be: *Thanks Trigger for putting down so much time and work on this issue
And *discover not upptäckte
December 19, 2016 @ 6:16 pm
‘upptackte’
Sent me searching for a Swedish to English translation website. And got me to thinking about my long departed grandfather who used to tell me stories in Swedish of which I understood none but loved all the same.
December 20, 2016 @ 11:24 am
“‘upptackte’ Sent me searching for a Swedish to English translation website”
I usually use “notebook” then I write comments and usually write in English but as soon as I come across a word I can’t spellI I usually write that word in Swedish (and believe me there are many words I can’t spell both in English and in Swedish…) and when I’m done the text is usually a mess of English and Swedish. So afterwards I look up the correct spelling of the non translated English words and translate them but sometimes I miss a word…
But i am a terrible writer so I make a lot of other mistakes too….
You have a Swedish Grandfather… The girls singing on youtube video that I posted a link to also sung two songs in Swedish and you might recognize one of them. It’s called”Gläns Över Sjö Och Strand” and is over 120 years old. And is one of Swedens most loved Christmas Carols.It has also been translated into English with the title: “The Star of Bethlehem”. “But the guy who uploaded the video made a medly of that song and another. So it’s (sadly) only about 40 seconds of it.
https://youtu.be/SNAZ3TNy2mc?t=12s
December 19, 2016 @ 6:27 pm
Well sexist or no I will say Tami Nielsen is one of the greatest female country artists on the scene, if not ever. Better than Miranda and Cam and their lot.
Also she is better than any mainstream male country act right now, too.
And we should be doing all we can to ensure she gets the face time she deserves.
December 20, 2016 @ 11:33 am
Good call, I agree but she is best known in New Zealand and thus far tours outside the U.S. to our great detriment. Yep she’s the Adele of country music with a hint of rockabilly. Awesome, sublimely talented with an earth shattering face melting voice!
December 19, 2016 @ 6:46 pm
Also I want Sturgill to win record of the year at the Grammys.
1. Because Sturgill had the best album of the lot IMO.
2. Because I want watch the laughable apocalypse of internet rage as non-stop claims of sexism and racism from SJW crowd erupt when Beyonce loses.
December 19, 2016 @ 6:48 pm
3. Because not everything s sexism.
December 19, 2016 @ 7:13 pm
In this PC world we live in now, you are damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. Whether it’s the race card like we dealt with when it came to Beyonce’ awhile back, and someone like Travis Tritt had to fight backlash over his comments, or it’s sexism like you are speaking of. All of a sudden we live in a world that is afraid of adjectives. You can’t use a persons gender, color, age, height, or weight without facing possible persecution for being taken out of context. I’m not sure how people have gotten so far in life with such thin skin.
December 19, 2016 @ 7:41 pm
Don’t worry, when the world goes through another crisis like the 30’s and 40’s (or worse) all of this PC stuff will be the least of your worries!
December 20, 2016 @ 7:30 am
Europe is in the midst of said crisis, and instead of eschewing the PC death spiral, its leaders are doubling down.
December 19, 2016 @ 7:46 pm
Trigger, screw the haters man. I have read about all the articles this year and they have all been fair. SCM is in ways like the “trump campaign.” You do things slightly out of the box to the norm and if you don’t agree with something, you simply call it the way you see it, gloves off. You will always get hell from some mainstream people that don’t like your style and they will twist things to make you look like the bad guy. I personally feel like you are one of the few that stick up for “women” in country. On a side note, fuck aubrie sellers and the Moss woman.
December 19, 2016 @ 7:48 pm
On, women writing music for women…If there’s a female singing a song about being on her period and bitchy, I sure hope a female wrote it because if a dude wrote it, it’d be kind of weird.
December 19, 2016 @ 7:55 pm
What a complicated issue. First, misogynist is a term thrown around too lightly these days. I would say that many men say things or do things at times when they fail to understand the impact on a woman. That does not equate to misogyny.
Second, Trigger, your comments on women at times have made me pause. Not often, but there. When you questioned the support Margo Price was getting from some high profile gigs (SNL, Stephen Colbert), I wondered if the questioning would have been celebration for a male performer, primarily because it seemed you usually celebrated high profile gigs for new artists. When you wrote an entire article demanding that a female performer “name” the man who assaulted her, I decided you could not have had first hand perspective on what it meant, on a personal level, to have been sexually assaulted. Perhaps it would be better for the music industry , better for women as a whole, for her to give a name. But it would have been horrifying for her on a personal level as a individual. (I do not remember her name…ahh, the irony…Lindsay of Steel Magnolias, whose music is not to my taste.) From these, and across reading the blog for some time, for me, you fall into the category of a man who, at times, fails to understand the impact of certain words and actions on the opposite sex. Not a crime, but an area to attempt to improve on.
Third, and actually what I wonder about most when it comes to this blog – Trigger, you seem to be very defensive to criticism. Would I subject myself to the whims of blogs and social media? Pass for me. But you have entered the fray with this blog. It seems to me that, for your own personal sanity, you’d be better off to step back when the criticism is thrown out, consider if there is some validity to it, but then move on without feeding the fire. Internet/social media responses are like oxygen to fire.
December 19, 2016 @ 9:27 pm
“From these, and across reading the blog for some time, for me, you fall into the category of a man who, at times, fails to understand the impact of certain words and actions on the opposite sex. Not a crime, but an area to attempt to improve on.”
I agree. That’s the reason I write articles like this is because I want to understand how females feel about this gender identifier issue, yet we’re receiving mixed messages at best. If I end up rubbing someone wrong because I share a strong opinion, that’s one thing. It is my job to not worry what the public perception is of me, especially from artists. But I never want to insult or disrespect someone accidentally by saying the wrong thing. But when the rules become so narrow, where you can’t refer to gender at all, while it seems to get a pass from others, or you can’t refer to artists by their first names, it creates a situation where you’re trying to understand, but the set of rules are different depending on who is reading. I’m not going to try and pass myself off as never having overlooked the female perspective. But I’m trying. And what was so unnerving about the Miranda Lambert quote that was pulled out of context was that it was an attempt at that very thing—to understand that Miranda is a female, writing for females, about the female condition. That doesn’t mean that is ONLY what Miranda does, or that music will ONLY appeal to females. It’s me admitting that there is a gulf in perspective that even if I can’t traverse it, I can at least acknowledge it, and telling readers they should try to do the same thing. And that’s the reason I included the response from a commenter about it, because they nailed it right on the head. I put that sentence about Miranda’s music in there as a response to criticism of me overlooking the female perspective in music. And lo and behold, it was used to attack me for that very thing.
As for Margo Price on SNL, that situation was was so misconstrued because Price presented it as “Not everybody likes my music” when that had nothing to do with it. My point was an artist like Margo Price was not only cutting in line in front of other artists for that opportunity, including other females, but that she was also not ready to to take full advantage of it. And lo and behold, that’s exactly what happened. Margo Price has enjoyed a lot of support in 2016, but the SNL appearance did not result in a significant bump in her sales or social network footprints. It would have been a much more lucrative opportunity at this point in her career. It was simply a logistic issue that people took to be a criticism of her music.
“It seems to me that, for your own personal sanity, you’d be better off to step back when the criticism is thrown out, consider if there is some validity to it, but then move on without feeding the fire. Internet/social media responses are like oxygen to fire.”
That is exactly what I did with this issue. Exactly. The accusations on Twitter happened in the middle of last week, and if I had responded then, and on social network, it would have not been pretty. That’s why I slept on it, walked away from it, and wrote this article instead with a cooler head. I’ve also resisted getting into the fray on social media.
“Trigger, you seem to be very defensive to criticism.”
You’re damn right I’m defensive on this issue. I’ve resisted posting a list of the dozens upon dozens of articles I’ve written on the issue of women in country over the years, as well as the hundreds of features of females artists because I don’t want to be self-aggrandizing. But thrust me, they’re out there, and my hardcore readers know it. Meanwhile Twitter trolls just hear that this male reporter has a problem with women, and they go on the attack. This issue of women being overlooked in country has been a very serious focus of Saving Country Music’s for many years, and frankly I’m hurt that after all that effort, folks just assume I’m just another sexist male in country. I don’t want recognition on this issue though, I want to solve it and move onto the next one. And I can tell you, if half the women in country are saying “Don’t refer to us by our gender,” and the other half are doing that very thing, the women in country are going to spend more time running in circles than solving these problems.
December 19, 2016 @ 8:09 pm
There are no rules. Not any that work anyways. You never know when someone is tired of hearing *something* no matter what that some thing is. Like if you start talking about how awesome Mike Vick or Brett Farve are, I’m just sick of hearing it.
Besides, outrage sells. Get’s peoples attention. If they can’t find something wrong with it, many people will just ignore it and move on.
Me though, I love the broads. Never had any problems.
December 19, 2016 @ 8:34 pm
Hey Trigger,
Your opening question (“Can I even refer to artists as ‘female’ or ‘women,’ or is this sexist in itself?”) is really interesting!
From a critical standpoint, using an identifier (female, gay, black, Hispanic, working class, white collar) doesn’t automatically make you sexist, racist, homophobic, or otherwise prejudiced — though you run the risk of being called those things because identifiers have specific connotations, often different for everyone. That’s the whole point of identifiers: When you describe a subject as “working class,” you are evoking a specific set of ideas commonly associated with that phrase to your own purpose. It’s why it’s such a difficult line to walk between using identifiers and using stereotypes. People in a hurry can’t (or sometimes don’t bother to) tell the difference.
Like any tools ever, identifiers can be used for good or bad. I mean, imagine writing a review about “12 Years a Slave” and never referring to African American history. Would your review be relevant? Maybe if you only wanted to discuss technicalities, like lens and filmstock? Certainly the discussion would be limited to what’s outside the plot, which, as far as I can tell, is pretty significant to the purpose of the film. The flip side, of course, is making generalized statements based on a single identifier, like saying that all women artists write for women audiences. Isn’t it possible that some women artists do, and some don’t? It’s not helpful or productive. In general (ironically), generalizations tend to be neither helpful or productive.
I love that your first rule is to respect each artist’s preferences and personal beliefs, because beyond anything else, you’re right — we need to engage in conversations, and the only way to do it is to respect and hear what each person has to say, especially about what they are trying to do with their art.
Coming back to the first part of your question — can you (which I am interpreting as “should you”) refer to artists as female or women — I think that it depends on relevance and effect. Again, if you are writing about an artist who says that she has written a song specifically to support womanhood, based on her experiences as a woman, I don’t understand how it would be sexist to discuss how her gender affects the way she is able to craft her song, or connect to her audience. Her gender, by her own statement, is relevant. On the other hand, if the effect of discussing an artist’s gender is meant to marginalize her work by focusing only on her gender, then using an identifier is not only irrelevant — it’s entirely sexist.
Re: Your being labeled a “misogynist” — I’m behind you and SCM 100 percent. You are not a misogynist and you are not a sexist. I admire so much what you do here at SCM, Trigger. You have connected me to a whole world of good people making good music, and your patience (and sometimes impatience!) with the state of things is something to behold. So thank you for all your food for thought all these years. I hope that I was able to give a little bit back tonight.
December 19, 2016 @ 8:59 pm
Thanks for the insight Mickey. Way before any of the drama of this issue, I had decided to stop referring to artists by their gender unless, like you say, it’s relevant. And I think this is a very important subject that we need some sort of consensus on, or there is going to be continued conflict.
December 19, 2016 @ 9:19 pm
I agree entirely that there has to be some sort of consensus, and I think that consensus did exist as the basic common sense you’re talking about: A set of rules of engagement where you abide by facts, you assume good intention, and you practice courtesy by respecting differences.
It’s disappointing to see basic common sense being eroded (replaced?) by this currently-prevalent sense of entitlement, sensationalism, and self-righteousness; I’m hoping the trend reverses itself, and soon. Critic, artist, audience — we will always be guessing at each other’s thinking, you know? I think your idea of basic common sense is exactly the kind of consensus we need to reach, or get back to, in order for any progress to be made in promoting deserving artists, or to create any kind of meaningful movement or public discourse.
December 19, 2016 @ 9:54 pm
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m really tired of every group of people crying and getting their feelings hurt over every damn thing said. Your wasting your time trying to defend yourself, or trying to write articles that won’t offend somebody. If there are no targets to support their point of view, they will create them.
I like plenty of women country singers, but I’m not going to just buy their albums because they want to be equal. And let’s be honest, many of these “artists” spend more time trying to get fans with their looks rather than their talent. If they want to be equals, then make music of equal quality.
December 19, 2016 @ 10:34 pm
As a 23 year old girl…
I would probably respect some of these heifers if…
1. They would quit signing their names and work away to record labels. Duh…
2. They would quit wasting time taking promo pictures and making unnecessary music videos. You want a picture to put on your website? Let someone take one while you’re on stage singing a good song, NOT POSING.
3. They would quit dressing like poor hookers. I get hit on everyday, while wearing safety pins on my plaid button-ups to keep the holes from gaping open between the buttons! Oh, but these heifers ain’t interested in being attractive….right…
4. They would quit bitching about not being equal to a man whose song is on the radio. I thought “fame and fortune” wasn’t what you were going after? There’s nothing wrong with it being a goal, but quit bitching and appreciate what you are getting out of being able to make music and providing it to the public.
5. Who in the hell doesn’t want to be identified by gender???? I sure as hell do not want to be mistaken for a man!
When it gets to the point I can’t hear the song, because the singer won’t shutup, I quit supporting them.
I guess I’m so old fashioned in so many ways, it’s laughable. But I laugh at these “ladies” who act like they don’t ever want an old fashioned man around. Good riddance. They complain because they don’t get the opportunities men get, but gripe because they have to do the “work of a man” when those opportunities are offered. Another reason why I despise people…
December 21, 2016 @ 6:27 am
Great goddamn comment.
December 19, 2016 @ 10:43 pm
If the politically correct “snowflake” lady artists are offended by being called female or women, then I guess it’s time to revert to the tried and true “Girl Singers” to bestow the level of respect upon these foolish twits that they truly deserve…
December 19, 2016 @ 10:43 pm
It is very important to teach people, particularly our youth, about the dangers of ignorance + language. However, our PC culture has unintentionally created Orwell’s Thought Crime. And social media is the telescreen.
December 20, 2016 @ 12:12 am
Hey trig, I do think you should consider changing the title of the article. As one commenter pointed out, it never looks good when someone starts off with “I am not sexist”.
The current title almost makes it seem like you are only defending yourself, as opposed to trying to have a thought based conversation and trying to learn (which almost seemed like the bulk of the article). I loved the article, and thought only a small margarin of it was about the title you gave it.
December 20, 2016 @ 11:08 am
Hey Tom,
Thanks for the suggestion, but at this late in the game it’s kind of impossible since the title is also tied to the URL of the article. The reason I titled it as such is because I wanted to engage people with this topic. Frankly, whenever I write about these issues of women in country, it’s difficult to get people to pay attention because they feel like they’ve heard all the wining before. I very rarely refer to myself in either the title or the articles (I even refer to myself in third person as “Saving Country Music” at the risk of looking self-absorbed just to remove myself once from the content), but in this case I thought it represented how not just me, but many folks are getting attacked and criticized on this issue, and NOE of us are misogynists.
I keep going back to this, but remember, this isn’t just me being criticized for sexism. As I illustrated above, this is Billboard’s “Women in Country Music” being accused of sexism, and other such organizations. I know you know this, but that’s why I felt it was so important to engage the public on this issue, and so it needed an unorthodox title.
December 20, 2016 @ 5:37 pm
Fair enough. I just didn’t want people to get the wrong idea right off the bat. Based on most of the comments, I looks like people read through the whole thing, which is great.
December 20, 2016 @ 7:39 am
Trig, been a big fan of your work since The 9513 went down a few years back, and I will always support you and your endeavors toward the fight for QUALITY music, no matter the gender, to be spread to the masses. This whole thing brought an article to mind that came out after Miranda Lambert’s “Vice” video came out, that touches on some interesting points:
http://thefederalist.com/2016/09/11/miranda-lambert/
Probably my favorite block of the whole article, that hits home to a good chunk of the conversation above, is the following (actually from a review by the Houston Press, but the whole article itself is excellent):
“George Strait might be able to talk about being the ‘Fireman’ and ‘puttin’ out fires all over town,’ but female artists in country have long been expected to ooze sexuality while never actually addressing that they may like and have and, heaven forbid, enjoy sex outside the confines of a heterosexual marriage.”
To me, it’s amazing that a song from 1984 can be compared (or contrasted) to a song from a female artist in 2016. Is there a fine line in subject matter for any artist? Hardly, unless the song is total crap. When you throw gender into the mix, and more specifically, the roles that are often discussed in a heterosexual relationship/marriage, everyone seems to go OMGGG WATTTT!?!?! – especially when it comes from the female point of view.
In summary, males are not perfect. Females aren’t either. Doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be an equal/open opportunity for discussion on any topic, regardless of the forum of conversation. The fact that you had the cajones to broach the subject of feminism/misogyny knowing there would be some obvious backlash, speaks volumes on your character in a very positive way. Keep fighting the good fight, Trig. This female supports you. 🙂
December 20, 2016 @ 11:03 am
Thanks Mojo.
I think a point that is being overlooked here and you touched on is that people interpret music different ways depending on their perspective, and having a song that can be interpreted in different way by different people is a sign of good songwriting—that the song can morph into something depending on the audience. Gender is one of those things that plays into perspective. I may interpret a song different than a female. That doesn’t necessarily mean I’m wrong or shallow for not seeing the females perspective, it just means I get something different from the song, and that’s not just okay, that’s one of the magical things about music that we shouldn’t work to erode because we don’t want to speak about gender.
December 20, 2016 @ 7:42 am
Good music is good music. Bad music sucks and we are forced to hear it every day. I would love to hear Margo Price, Brandy Clark, Mickey Guyton and Aubrie Sellers on the radio instead of the current rotation of Luke Bryan and Jason Aldean every other song. I do not criticize many artists because obviously what they produce has an audience, even if it is not my taste.
The Billboard Women of Country story shined the light on the best new singers in Nashville. If anyone was offended for getting that type of attention, maybe they shouldn’t have agreed to be a part of the story. If a reputable magazine wants to put you on the cover, be thankful for the spotlight.
At that time, most of these singers had only one (if any) hit singles on the radio. Now, Maren Morris seems to be on her way to a Grammy win, and unless someone comes out of left field, the 2017 CMA Female Vocalist of the Year.
I have been amazed several times that artists that have great first singles have been unable to follow it up with another radio-friendly song. Cam comes to mind with “Mayday” being overlooked at radio after her massive hit “Burning House.” The lack of support for her second single probably cost her a nomination at the CMA Awards in the Female Vocalist category.
Another example is Little Big Town, who now seems to be fronted on all singles by Karen Fairchild. Why was radio so reluctant to play a follow-up to “Girl Crush,” which was only the second single off their last CD? (not counting the Pharrell side project). That album was stocked with worthy follow-ups that radio would not give a chance because it had a completely different sound than previously released single.
I am beginning to wonder who are the future superstars of the genre. Record labels are trying too hard to find a singer instead of building a singer as an artist. Who is going to fill Luke Bryan, Kenny Chesney, Carrie Underwood and Garth Brooks’ shoes in selling out arenas if labels do not stop trying to break another new artist every couple of months?
December 20, 2016 @ 7:56 am
You bring up a great point, Ray – the timeless question of “Who’s Gonna Fill Their Shoes?” – maybe not in size or stature (or hell, even quality), but in terms of overall “brand names” that have filled the world of Country music for the last 10-15 years (and beyond). It’s getting harder to break an artist solely based on “the whole package” – simply because the world of social media has broken down the walls of the average fan club, and made everyone so accessible. Nashville, and more specifically, Country music, has always been about 7 years behind the rest of the music industry in terms of new media/marketing concepts to the genre, be it an “EP” release, or just bucking the whole album thing as a whole, OR anything that may take away the ambiguity of the ownership of the artist by the record label. I feel like this question has been asked many, many times, and will continue to be asked, just because music is so cyclical in nature.
But like in ‘Field of Dreams’ – no matter the circumstance – “People will come, Ray. People will most definitely come.” – and the artists who will be pushed to the forefront by their hard-working fans will become the stars of tomorrow.
December 20, 2016 @ 7:53 am
If you read “finding her voice” by Robert k oermann and co-author by a woman (name I forget) it details in depth the struggles and triumphs of women in country music. ITs about 500 pages of fine print. There is an updated version which covers after the mid 90’s that I’ve never read.
Female representation in country music over the years has a total average of 12-15%. Highest it’s ever been is 1/3. A variety of reasons. One of them being natural as they take time off if they have children and lose momentum.
It’s a battle that can’t be changed overnight. Naturally I listen to 90’s country as my favorite. I’m male and when I do a playlist I have to try and throw women in there for balance. Just a personal preference on my end or what I’ve been exposed to.
December 20, 2016 @ 9:09 am
Trig, I like your site, but I am going to have to agree with some of the other commenters that, at times, articles you’ve written on your blog have been problematic. The Meghan Linsey article stating that she needs to tell folks who sexually assaulted her was the most troubling, and I was very disgusted and almost gave up on your site after reading it. Your article about Beyonce’s Grammy nominations seemed to allude to reverse racism (in regards to the AP’s comments on what country music is), which literally isn’t a thing. To be honest, I find most of your Beyonce articles problematic. The Miranda comment was well-intended, but it did assume that Miranda was mostly writing for a female audience, which seems like a big assumption. I would think most of the themes of the album (“We Should Be Friends” excluded) were pretty universal. These statements may seem innocuous to you, but to others they might seem like micro-aggressions.
Trig, I can see that you do care deeply about these issues and want to be an ally. Part of being an ally is respectfully listening to criticism, even when it’s directed at you. I would encourage you to continue to educate yourself and deepen your understanding of these issues. You seem to be arguing that women are shooting themselves in the foot, and maybe they are, I don’t know. But do give women the chance to define for themselves what “music by women” means and what is and isn’t sexism. The ability to define one’s group and the issues that impact it is very important (and not something women or POC have historically had the chance to do). I would also encourage you to keep writing about women. I’ve certainly noticed you write about men more than women, but you also write more about women than just about anyone else, which is a step in the right direction. Also, please turn your spotlight on country artists of color, who are woefully underrepresented just about everywhere. I appreciate that about this site, so please keep trucking.
December 20, 2016 @ 10:58 am
Thanks for the feedback Amanda.
December 20, 2016 @ 2:36 pm
Reverse racism literally isn’t a thing because racism isn’t an inherently white thing, so it need not have a qualifier of direction.
December 21, 2016 @ 6:03 am
So typical…millenial college libs never happy about anything, using idiotic buzzwords like micro aggessions! Hey, go do something productive with your life. So you find everything troubling? Then quit reading this site. It’s a BLOG!!!!!!! Ok?. No one hear hates women or people of color. If Trig wants to only write about space alien country singers, he can…it’s his blog!!!! And the last thing I care about is seeing it go PC. People like you are wrecking civilization. You make everyone miserable!!!!! People are people, and that’s the way it is. YouR tripe smacks of Joseph McCarthy and Salem Witch Trials. Everyone’s a commie or a witch, they need exposed and destroyed. Calling people racist or misogynist is the same thing and it’s getting old.GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!! Stop listening to nut job college Profs who take people’s money but don’t actually contribute anything positive to society. Live your life and learn to deal with adversity like the rest of us.
December 21, 2016 @ 6:43 am
Actually, maybe YOU should quit reading this site. Trigger asked for this conversation. He thanked Amanda for her feedback, which I found to be thoughtful and very civil. You, on the other hand, are coming off like another screaming idiot on the internet. And this “millennial college lib” favorite of yours is so tired.
December 20, 2016 @ 10:15 am
Everybody is so ready to jump on social media and point fingers. I love how these ladies (I hope it’s okay that I called them ladies!) choose to handle their careers. Do you think Dolly Parton would have jumped on social media to spank Trigger? Hell no, even if Trigger had of said something wrong. Why? Because she’s above that sort of thing. She’s a class act and has always “gone high when others went low.” Aubrey Sellers, Margo Price, and Melissa Moss (I did that on purpose) need to worry about themselves and being the best they can be. That’s how you beat the haters. Not whining on Twitter. Oh, and I would use whining to describe a male artist doing this too. Trigger I applaud you for trying but we now live in a culture that no matter what you do, someone is going to be offended.
December 20, 2016 @ 10:35 am
Trig – you demonstrated here that you want to listen and dialogue, on a topic that is often fraught with complexity and difficulties, and yes with real pain and bias for oh so many over the years.
Many people in the world have given up caring or trying to not offend others. Damn shame. You seem to be actively trying to understand and be better – those are good traits.
Keep up the good work in the new year – I’ve found so many new artists (new to me at leats) from reading the site and the comments section. And yes, male and female artists. 🙂
December 20, 2016 @ 1:35 pm
I think you might have given people the wrong opinion about you when you wrote Carrie Underwood ahould stop talking and just look pretty and sing.
December 20, 2016 @ 2:05 pm
hey can you post a link to that story? I’m compiling some things.
December 20, 2016 @ 2:50 pm
lol.
December 20, 2016 @ 3:01 pm
Maybe you can find it in one of these:
https://savingcountrymusic.com/i-am-not-a-misogynist-an-editorial/comment-page-1/#comment-802246
December 20, 2016 @ 3:51 pm
I don’t want to jump to conclussions but calling her a ding dong, I think that means she’s dumb? Pop country singer didn’t sit too well with her fans.
https://savingcountrymusic.com/i-dont-care-what-carrie-underwood-thinks-about-gay-marriage-a-rant/
December 21, 2016 @ 7:49 pm
Well, this is disappointing :-/
December 20, 2016 @ 2:44 pm
I took Trigger to task a bit for the tone of the Beyonce stories/comments, so I’ll weigh in on this one…much like that conversation, this is a nuanced subject. I am a weak-kneed liberal with a wife and two daughters who are staunch feminists, and they help me check my privilege all the time. That said, I think Trigger’s work on this site advocating for female country artists should be lauded, not criticized. Does he always say the perfect thing? Doubtful. Neither do I. Hypersensitivity can make enemies of your allies, something I think people on my side of the aisle misunderstand a lot of the time (while my daughters check my privilege, I try to make sure they understand this point).
Someone else probably said this above, but like the Beyonce stories, I was afraid to read all the comments.
tl;dr: Keep up the good work, Trigger.
December 20, 2016 @ 3:00 pm
Hey Folks,
Because there’s so much discussion behind how Saving Country Music perceives and covers women, I thought I would compile most or all of the articles that I have written on the subject. I’m not sure if this is all of them, these are just the ones I could easily hunt down. Also note that these do NOT include album and song reviews, artist features, interviews, end-of-year lists, or other articles that may either touch on or significantly tackle the issue, or highlight female artists, including naming women the winners of Song of the Year, Album of the Year, etc, of which there are hundreds. This is just the articles that deal very directly with the subject of the systemic downgrading of both women and female artists in country music. There is 32 of them in total.
https://savingcountrymusic.com/katie-arminger-accuses-label-of-wanting-her-to-sex-it-up-for-radio-program-directors/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/university-study-says-women-objectified-in-country-music-more-than-ever/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/sister-c-reignites-the-legacy-of-strong-country-women-in-faint-of-heart/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/dont-lump-countrys-women-together-let-them-stand-toe-to-toe-with-the-men/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/i-say-include-women-an-opinion-piece-by-lindi-ortega/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/starry-eyes-honky-tonk-angels-how-women-originally-won-equality-in-country-music/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/9-women-who-could-immediately-make-country-better/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/women-at-forefront-of-country-music-evolution/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/what-happened-to-respecting-women-in-country-music/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/vinyl-women-increase-sales-solve-what-sopa-cant/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/i-am-not-a-misogynist-an-editorial/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/devarati-ghosh-a-k-a-windmills-country-has-died/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/predatory-label-imposter-tries-to-lure-in-young-female-performers/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/no-i-said-what-kind-of-bird-are-you/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/why-not-use-these-collaborations-to-help-develop-some-country-talent/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/red-dirt-and-texas-country-have-a-female-problem/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/cma-is-all-talk-when-it-comes-to-including-females-in-festival-lineup/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/the-media-most-everyone-else-missed-the-real-target-of-taylor-swifts-grammy-speech/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/jason-aldean-says-he-cant-distinguish-countrys-females-they-just-sound-really-similar-to-me/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/cam-calls-out-country-weeklys-countrys-hottest-bachelorette-survey/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/country-radio-consultant-if-you-want-to-make-ratings-in-country-radio-take-females-out-aka-saladgate/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/woman-sexually-assaulted-at-jason-aldean-concert-in-oregon/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/maddie-tae-respond-to-florida-georgia-lines-criticism-of-girl-in-a-country-song/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/sirius-xms-fresh-female-voices-looks-to-return-girl-power-to-radio/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/kira-isabella-tackles-date-rape-in-quarterback/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/from-checklist-to-bro-country-the-subversion-of-country-music/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/bro-country-is-just-the-symptom-here-are-the-causes/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/move-over-bro-country-the-bra-country-revolution-has-begun/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/rant-okay-ill-say-it-country-music-in-2013-is-sexist/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/8-positive-female-role-models-in-music/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/1952-country-musics-original-year-of-the-woman/
https://savingcountrymusic.com/nashvilles-sex-war-gender-marketing-in-music/
December 20, 2016 @ 3:24 pm
Trigger,
I don’t want to get all political, so I just want to say this: don’t let them bully you. Wanting to be informed, trying to help the best way you can, all laudable goals, but don’t try to be “an ally”, or any such nonsense. Nothing good ever comes out of that, and you will eventually trip up and get excommunicated all the same.
Intelligent people, male or female, will realise that your intentions are good, that you don’t mean to offend or belittle, and you don’t need to bend over backwards to accomodate those who want to police everything you or others say.
And I certainly don’t mean stop giving exposure to talented female musicians, even if people are ungrateful fucks about it sometimes.
I don’t read this site or listen to country music all that much anymore, but you more than anybody else helped shape my musical taste, and lead me to a number of great artists. I know it isn’t much, and maybe I’m getting all sappy on you, but I think you are a good man with a heart in the right place.
Thank you for what you do.
December 20, 2016 @ 3:40 pm
Thanks Chook.
December 20, 2016 @ 3:46 pm
Trig, all the articles listed above should have their own “article” about those articles w links so people can find them easier when they click on the website instead of the bottom of a comments section.
December 20, 2016 @ 4:13 pm
Justin,
I really don’t want to escalate this situation, and that is why I didn’t post this earlier. I also don’t want to participate in self-aggrandizing myself or trying to act like I’m the biggest female champion on country music, or get into some tit for tat war where each is trying to prove how they’ve done more for women in country music than the other. If it becomes a situation where folks can’t give up on their efforts to character assassinate me, then perhaps I’ll post a dedicated article with these links. But right now it was meant as nothing more than an illustration that my passion on this subject is not new, and isn’t just skin deep. This is a subject that is very near and dear to my heart, and this is being overlooked by many.
December 20, 2016 @ 4:01 pm
laughable that this is even a topic of conversation in the genre of Kitty, Dolly, Wanda, Jean, Loretta, Tanya, Emmylou, Gillian, Alison, Miranda … the list is endless
try rock or jazz on for size
laughable
get a grip
December 20, 2016 @ 4:17 pm
And where is Lindi Ortega to post her Op-Ed in these troubled times?
Just sayin’ I think it was Trigger who gave her the space here…
December 20, 2016 @ 5:21 pm
F the millennials and their political correctness. We’re becoming a nation of wimps. Did you see this BS at NPR about ‘Baby It’s Cold Outside’?.
http://www.npr.org/2016/12/20/505113526/one-more-time-with-consent-baby-its-cold-outside-gets-an-update?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=music
December 21, 2016 @ 6:26 am
Trigger, you can’t win this. You can provide 300 pages of evidence and testimony and expert witnesses and you will still lose. The best response to this type of thing is to ignore it. For most people, ‘Equality’ is an ideal to live up to, but for others it is a bona fide religion, and arguing with them is no more productive that arguing with your uncle Earl the Moral Majority member. The more you are sucked into the argument, the more you lose and they win.
December 21, 2016 @ 7:22 am
Trigger, you just keep doing what you are doing. If it wasn’t for this site I wouldn’t even know who Margo Price was for pete’s sake. I don’t care what sex an “artist” is. I don’t care about their background or how they grew up. I have my own worries. What I care about is that they put out an album that connects with me and has good country music on it. If it doesn’t connect, then I don’t buy it. I didn’t buy Aubrie Seller’s album, not because she is a woman, but because I just didn’t like it. I do however own all of Lindi Ortega’s albums and all of Tami Neilson’s albums because they are awesome artists who marry up their outstanding voices with good music. Please don’t change they way you conduct business because it doesn’t fit somebody else’s agenda. Most of my music collection over the past few years can be traced back to this outstanding website.
December 25, 2016 @ 9:00 pm
You didn’t give Sellers all that good of a review which is why she probably jumped in on it. (Oops I called her by her last name,not sure of the rules now) MARGO didnt get invited on the show,so she’s pissed too. I feel that petty bullshit like this is going to hurt them more than help them. I like a ton of female artists, (Miranda not being one),and bitching about something so lame drives ME away even. I bet all the ones bitching voted for Hillary just because she’s a woman.Hear me roar,just dont call me a female..And you’re racist and shit..
January 6, 2017 @ 7:05 pm
I think there’s everything right about referring to artists as men or women. However to say some woman is “breaking the mold of what women in the music industry should be” is wrong. Why should rules or roles be different for men and women? If the quote had been some woman is “breaking the mold of what artists/singers/songwriter/producers in the music industry should be” then it’s ok because we’re not pigeon holing that person as a woman, or southerner, or former car mechanic, banker, etc.
No one said Michael Stipe or Waylon Jennings is “breaking the mold of what men in the music industry should be.” I think the problem stems from someone afflicted with identity politics trying to place too much symbolism on someone who’s not a symbol for anything but is just an actual human being.
To some extent I think it could be argued that the same is occasionally done here as the future of country music or Americana, or whatever is placed on the shoulders of Sturgill or Stapleton. They’re just artists, not leaders of a movement. All artist should be treated as artists and not a figurehead for some other motivation.
January 8, 2017 @ 10:39 pm
I ran across this article because I was searching SCM for female country artists to check out. I realized I listen to 99% men in my country music. Problem is I am not finding any female performers that I want to listen to more than Ray Wylie Hubbard, James McMurtry, Dale Watson, Ryan Bingham, Hayes Carll, Whitey Morgan, Willie Nelson, Slaid Cleaves, Corb Lund, Stoney LaRue, Darrell Scott, Dwight Yoakum, Steve Earle, Charlie Robison, Chris Stapleton, Kristofferson, etc. Not to mention the music that I still listen to from the deceased, Billy Joe Shaver, Guy Clark, Townes, Blaze Foley, Bob Wills, Buck Owens, George Jones, Merle Haggard, Hank 1, 2, 3, Waylon, DAC (should be dead), Roy Acuff, Marshall Tucker Band and more. I actually listen to more deceased female country artists than living. I like Lucinda Williams enough to return to listen to her but I am having a hard time maintaining interest with the contemporary female artists and that sound. Maybe I need to focus on honky tonk/swing female artists to get away from the mainstream but would appreciate suggestions of “can’t miss” female performers.
January 8, 2017 @ 11:13 pm
Billy Joe Shaver is not dead. You made my heart skip a beat there for a second 🙂
There are a lot of female artists I would suggest in my Essential Albums list:
https://savingcountrymusic.com/saving-country-musics-essential-albums-list-for-2016/
January 9, 2017 @ 1:25 pm
Wow, blame it on 2016? Or I must have my head up my ass. I thought he had passed and now I feel really bad because I have said I wished I had seen him before he had. He has an extensive tour schedule. I better climb on board somewhere because can’t live that down. At least I was right about DAC. Thanks for setting me right.
January 9, 2017 @ 7:59 am
A few more:
Patty Griffin, Gillian Welch, Lindi Ortega, Elizabeth Cook, Eilen Jewell, Jamie Lin Wilson, Amanda Shires, Lilly Hiatt, Nikki Lane, Kathleen Edwards, Kelly Willis, Holly Williams, Caitlin Rose
January 9, 2017 @ 8:11 am
Whole albums of love songs grow tiresome really quickly.
January 9, 2017 @ 1:22 pm
thanks, I should have mentioned Gillian. Been fortunate enough to see her twice but with the machine. Outside of knowing of Patty and Amanda, I don’t know the others. Assignment to do. Again, thanks.